Philip Rivers And Eli Manning
If you read the title of this article and thought it was going to be a rehash of the 2004 draft, you were tricked. If you thought you were going to read about how one is superior the other, then you are wrong. What I want to do here is just take a look at a quarterback (Eli Manning) who is obviously the franchise QB of his team, has played on a lot of winning teams and a couple .500 teams and who has had a lot of stability at Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator during his career. All those traits he more or less shares in common with Chargers QB Philip Rivers.
Eli Manning is also a man in the news these days. For the second time in his career he's gone into Lambeau field in January and knocked off a favorited Green Bay Packers team that seemed primed to go to the Super Bowl. Something else that's interesting about Eli Manning is that last year he threw 25 interceptions. His team missed the playoffs that year as they had the year before when the team went 8-8. Despite plenty of criticisms, the Head Coach was never fired and the Offensive Coordinator remained in place.
Philip Rivers is one month shy of being a year younger than Eli Manning. He threw a career high 20 interceptions and his team will miss the playoffs for the second year in a row. He will head into the 2012 with the same Head Coach (the offensive coordinator will change, but I think we'd all agree it's fair to say that Norv Turner, for all intents and purposes, takes on both roles).
I don't want to predict that because of these similarities (and I'll be the first to admit that I've framed the article to accentuate their similarities and not their difference) that Rivers is destined to see the team success like Eli Manning is having this year. I do think it would be an interesting turn of events though. I also think that something that gets lost in constant hype surrounding the NFL is that these QBs are learning every year on the job. That 25 interception season and back-to-back non-playoff seasons probably taught Eli something. I think it seems likely that Rivers will learn something too. Other QBs seem to have more things click as they get older.
Drew Brees took a number of years to become what he is now. Tom Brady was just a clutch QB until 2007 when he suddenly became an MVP candidate QB. Peyton Manning's playoff failures may have held the lessons that eventually took him to a Super Bowl win. In a different era Hall of Fame Chargers QB Dan Fouts had a ton of bumps in the road before becoming a prolific QB that kept his team in contention for a number of years. And I think the Eli Manning we've seen this year is a step up from what came in previous years, which had been good enough to help his team to 60-43 record and a Super Bowl win.
The takeaway lesson here is that quarterbacking is a work in progress. Early success does not mean that a QB can't get better. Of course, there are tons of other factors that determines wins and losses. However, with the hope that perhaps as soon as next year we'll see an even better Philip Rivers that gives me a lot of hope in the Chargers as a whole.
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We need to use that picture every time we discuss Rivers here.
Bolts from the Blue // "At least when Wade is spewing vitriol he does so with an intellectual flair." - insanebolt21
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan
Good post.
I think most people either forget or never realized that neither Brees nor Brady were always this good. And Rivers is behind both on the age and learning curve.
A pirate I was meant to be!
"You say you're nasty pirates,
scheming, thieving, bad bushwackers?
From what I've seen I tell you
You're not pirates, you're just slackers!"
by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 17, 2012 9:14 AM PST reply actions
It's also kind of crazy
to think that the best is yet to come for Philip.
A pirate I was meant to be!
"You say you're nasty pirates,
scheming, thieving, bad bushwackers?
From what I've seen I tell you
You're not pirates, you're just slackers!"
by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 17, 2012 9:15 AM PST reply actions
We just don't know.
Has he peaked? Or has he just hit a plateau, and is he going to take another step up next year?
An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 17, 2012 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
I know this is not a Phillip vs Eli article
I would just like to say that Eli has also had a pretty good defense to help him out in really tough game situations….like going into green bay and knocking them off. In his SB run he also had a very dominant Defense with most of the players that are still on his 2011 roster. If we could put together a very stout D line to help get the ball into PR17s hands I’m sure he could eclipse the success Eli has had.
by Gorditoe1 on Jan 17, 2012 9:53 AM PST via iPhone app reply actions
Eli's had good defenses before
And didn’t have the kind of year he’s currently having. He’s take a step up this year and that included a stretch where the defense wasn’t playing at the level it currently is.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
I'm sure
That stretch could be attributed to injury to players…but one thing is for sure they have playmakers on that defense that allowed them to come back and be dominating when it most needed to be.
by Gorditoe1 on Jan 17, 2012 10:20 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Certainly
A QB by himself cannot beat a team like the Packers.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
Maybe the Packers
are to Eli what the Colts are to Philip.
"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner
by Cake or Death on Jan 17, 2012 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
The Giants defense was takes 17th
In 07 far from dominant. The Chargers play in an easier division and Rivers has been surrounded by talent and has failed to have the success Eli has had. Eli threw 25 picks last season but about 10 of those should have been completions but whatever. Brees threw 22 picks last season but he gets a pass I guess. Eli is two wins away from another super bowl win. Carrying them on his back this far.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 11:05 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
In 07 far from dominant
They played the highest scoring offense in history and held them to 14 points. That’s the very definition of a dominating peformace.
The Chargers play in an easier division and Rivers has been surrounded by talent and has failed to have the success Eli has had.
I’l trade you our defensive talent for yours, any day. Better yet, I’d love to jump in the Wayback machine to January 2008 and trade you 2 busted Charger knees for 2 healthy Giants knees.
Eli threw 25 picks last season but about 10 of those should have been completions but whatever.
You can always say that about any QB. What’s the point?
Carrying them on his back this far.
Do you not watch the games when the Giants don’t have have the ball? The D shut out Atlanta and brought another historicall great offense to a halt with pressure and turnovers. What part of that was Eli?
Eli is getting better
but he has the luxury of having a dominating defense. Rivers is hands down the better QB IMO.
by chargerclipperfan on Jan 17, 2012 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
It's really more a matter of timing
The Giants defense this year really only got things together late in the season, much like our 2007 team that also almost defeated the Patriots.
"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner
by Cake or Death on Jan 17, 2012 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe the difference from almost...
To actually BEATING them was Eli that’s the point. When it’s on the line the QB has to make the difference. Eli has, Rivers hasn’t bottom line.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 11:57 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
I agree that at the moment Eli is better than Rivers
but you can’t really blame Rivers for the 2007 playoff loss.
"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner
by Cake or Death on Jan 17, 2012 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
The same could be said about Eli though...
And every QB for that matter. They get too much blame for losses and too much credit for wins. In Eli’s case he gets all the blame for losses and zero credit for his successes. Mostly because media heads obviously never watch the games and just read stat lines.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 12:07 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
Fun Fact: With a better quarterback, the Giants would have won the Super Bowl handily.
Bolts from the Blue // "At least when Wade is spewing vitriol he does so with an intellectual flair." - insanebolt21
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan
by Richard Wade on Jan 17, 2012 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
Fun fact...
If Eli played on the Chargers they’d be working on ring number two.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 12:07 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
bull
"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner
by Cake or Death on Jan 17, 2012 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
Not anymore bull..
Than your buddies fun fact. Both baseless statements passed off as fact. Excuse me, fun fact.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 12:10 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
It's not a baseless statement.
The Giants won the Super Bowl. With better QB play, they still would have won the Super Bowl.
It’s mostly a riddle designed to expose closed minds. I think it worked.
So if the Chargers had a less talented QB they'd have won by now? That doesn't make sense. Please explain how that works.
Bolts from the Blue // "At least when Wade is spewing vitriol he does so with an intellectual flair." - insanebolt21
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan
by Richard Wade on Jan 17, 2012 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
As it turns out...
Giants are the ones seeking ANOTHER ring.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 12:09 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
Eli also hasn't
He just sometimes does. I’m not sure what that says about him.
He also has had a number of chances to do so (I didn’t look it up, but I’d bet he’s played in more playoff games than Rivers). Arguably those chances have been increased by having some good defenses and running games over the years. Coming through in some, but not all of your chances is not a sign that there is some innate skill involved. It is inconclusive at best.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
Not winning the candy ass AFC West the last few years does not go in the positive column for an elite QB. If Eli has played in more play off games than Rivers then more credit to him for making to the post season in a tougher division, and winning some games once he got there.
In 7 Seasons as a starter Eli has 5 Playoff appearances. He has played in 9 Playoff games so far.
In 6 seasons as a starter Rivers has 4 Playoff apperances. He has played in 7 playoff games so far.
The sample sizes here are so small as to make serious differentiation a ludicrious endevour.
For the most part I agree with you
I do think however that a team with an elite QB should have been able to win the AFC West this season and advance to the play offs.
not with the line that rivers had to put up with this year
by chargerclipperfan on Jan 17, 2012 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
It is a good excuse, but I don’t agree that the lines play was the cause for Rivers not playing up to his usual top level standards.
Yea this year he just seemed off
he had some flashes of himself later in the year, but I hope he gets back on track.
by chargerclipperfan on Jan 17, 2012 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
And yet, when Gaither single-handedly shored up the oline,
Rivers went back to being unflappable.
Gaither didn't single-handedly shore up the line
They gave him a fair amount of help. He definitely didn’t get exposed like Dombrowski would and the return on Tyronne Green helped.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
So your just going to blame the O-line for everything
They didn’t do the best job in the world, but even in the beginning of the season he was off
by chargerclipperfan on Jan 19, 2012 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
Certainly not the only cause, but I think it'd be hard to argue that it wasn't a factor.
Bolts from the Blue // "At least when Wade is spewing vitriol he does so with an intellectual flair." - insanebolt21
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan
by Richard Wade on Jan 18, 2012 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
Everything is a factor to some extent. It is a team sport and it all goes hand in hand. In fact the poor play of Rivers (for part of the season) may have made things a little more difficult for the line to play at their best as well.
Fair points all.
Bolts from the Blue // "At least when Wade is spewing vitriol he does so with an intellectual flair." - insanebolt21
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan
by Richard Wade on Jan 19, 2012 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
First of all I was at the Atlanta game...
And go to every home have and have seen every snap of Eli’s entire career. You can continue to regurgitate media garbage you hear but it’s obvious you don’t watch. Without Eli this team wins 3 games tops, their defense has been putrid all season.
As far as the 07 super bowl Eli was 9-14 176 1Td in the forth quarter. Becoming the only QB ever to lead his team to a TD when nothing else will do. He and Montana only QBs to throw two lead taking TD passes in the fourth qtr of the SB. I know your a charger fan and have a grudge against Eli but if you can put your hate aside you’d realize the kid is a beast. Watch his next game…you know another championship game.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 11:52 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
Two TD in fourth quarter..
Not sure why it says 1.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 11:55 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
can continue to regurgitate media garbage you hear but it’s obvious you don’t watch.
Except that I did. I saw the game. I watched the defense shut out the Falcons. It happened just as I witnessed it. What’s so hard to understand about this?
Without Eli this team wins 3 games tops, their defense has been putrid all season.
Putrid? I’m not sure you know what this word means.
I know your a charger fan and have a grudge against Eli but if you can put your hate aside you’d realize the kid is a beast.
I hold no grudge. On the contrary, I’m grateful for is temper tantrum, which let the Chargers get the QB they wanted and extra picks to boot.
But he’s not a beast. He’s a good QB who has had some good runs and also some bad ones. Just like every other top QB, Rivers included.
Actually
I have to agree with bleedblue12 on the regular season defense. “Putrid” seems apt given that the word “stink” probably doesn’t suffice.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
The Chargers D
Didn’t have the propensity for giving up big plays like the Giants D did. The Chargers D was consistently below average. The Giants D was boom or (big) bust.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
The Giants defense was 30th in the league....
Doesn’t get worse than that my friend. Eli weathered the storm now the defense is picking it up at the right time. In a month Eli will be hoisting his second Lombardi trophy.
FIRE Perry Fewell
by bleedblue12 on Jan 17, 2012 12:51 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
I don't know bout that
the game between you guys and the 49ers is going to be a good game.
by chargerclipperfan on Jan 17, 2012 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
Why stop at his second? You might as well just predict that Eli will be hoisting his 3rd Lombardi trophy in 13 months
It’s worth as much and just as credible.
First
It does get worse. 31 an 32 are worse than 30.
Second, I have no idea where you are getting 30th. By yards they are 27th, and by points they are 25th. Not great, but not 30th, and clearly they have figured things out. Putrid defenses do not hold pitch playoff shutouts or shut down historically excellent offenses.
Finally, we all know that these metrics are flawed at best. Looking at something like DVOA, the Giants were 20th. The Chargers were 29th, and 31st against the pass.
30th in what?
You have to add a qualifier.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
He was a member of a team that won a Superbowl.
That is correct. Lots of guys were on that team. You still have to evaluate them individually if you want to think intellectually about football players.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
by Wonko on Jan 17, 2012 10:20 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Is David Tyree better than Calvin Johnson?
One has gotten a superbowl ring and the other hasn’t.
by Ferguson1015 on Jan 17, 2012 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
I almost said something like that
But, I’ve done it in the past and the usual comeback is that QBs are different.
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
Yeah, I have as well
I just think it the “he has a superbowl ring so he must be better” argument is ridiculous. I mean was Peyton Manning so much worse before he got the superbowl ring than he was afterward?
by Ferguson1015 on Jan 17, 2012 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
The superbowl ring thing
Definitely gets weird when you talk about players that win it early vs. late. If you win it early in the career it distorts what people think of you. Would Favre’s gunslinging ways have been quite so lovable in the 2000s if he hadn’t won a ring in 1996-97?
"second base is the bizness." -jbox
Bolts from the Blue - San Diego Chargers Blog Created By The Fans, For The Fans
We just need to win a super bowl
to shut those people up already lol
by chargerclipperfan on Jan 17, 2012 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
Duh, everyone knows that Trent Dilfer is way better than that loser Dan Marino
"Rob Johnson does not suck" --me
"Norf is straight up awesome on b-holes out there."--TheThinGwynn (sort of)
"I hate Rob Johnson's stupid face"-- sdchicken
Philip Rivers and Eli Manning
sittin’ in a tree.
"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner
P-A-S-S-I-N-G
"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner
by Cake or Death on Jan 17, 2012 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
If we build a strong defense this off season
we can be one of the elite teams next season
by chargerclipperfan on Jan 17, 2012 10:28 AM PST reply actions
BUILD
sounds like a process which means no way Chargers can have a dominant defense next season. I know there’s always a chance, it’s just with the assistant changes going on and we don’t know who is staying/ leaving, I would rather see Chargers focus on offense in the first 3 rounds. 2 offensive players and an OLB or a LB. The issue supposedly during the losing streaks was injuries…well guess what? give Philip Rivers no excuses, give him another WR(even if Jackson is signed, Floyd is a free agent next year) There seems to be good Wide receivers in this draft. An OLB in 1st, WR 2nd rd and try to get La Michael James by moving up or maybe he drops to Chargers in the 3rd rd would improve this offense by a lot next season. I believe Chargers issues on defense is in the LB group, so that should be the focus.
Agreed
Our defense is capable of becoming a force just missing a pass rush to help the DBs. If McNeil and Gaither stay healthy and both start at tackle, then we can focus on some skill positions on offense. I would love to get LaMichael James too he is a straight out playmaker. Maybe we can get Amini Silatolu, OG from Midwestern State in the 4th, he’ll go unoticed because he’s from a smaller school. He is capable of being a starter though. We should also try and grab a TE that Gates and mentor till he retires.
by chargerclipperfan on Jan 17, 2012 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
The Giants have a pass rush
and a really good salsa dancer, which counts for a good 4 wins in today’s NFL.
The Chargers have the latter, but his 300lb frame lacks finesse, and he only played one game
Dielman on Rivers: "I've tried to get him to say sh-- or fu-- and all he'll ever do is say, 'Golly gee, I can't do that."
Bolts from the Blue
Join my 4,554 other followers on twitter. @poyzinous
by Superduperboltman on Jan 17, 2012 11:26 AM PST reply actions
All I'm Going to Say
Is just because you win a Super Bowl doesn’t make you the better Quarterback. If Aaron Rodgers can go from Fantasy Stud to beast Quarterback just because he won a Super Bowl, it shows how flawed the criteria for evaluating is. Winning a Super Bowl doesn’t make you anymore of an elite QB than losing your first game in the playoffs makes you non-elite. Lots of reasons why the Chargers haven’t won a Super Bowl. In certain cases it has been because Rivers struggled (2006 and 2009 come to mind). At the end of the day, though, he’s good enough and these teams that win Super Bowls seem to have everything just fall into place as the season goes on. That’s not happened yet for the Chargers.
"You play to win the game."
Sigh.
The one thing that bothers me the most when the Chargers miss the playoffs is the fact that every QB associated with Rivers has reached the mountain top (won at least one Super Bowl) and Rivers gets to sit at home watching. Eli (‘04 draft QB) has won 1 and is potentially on his way to 2, Big Ben (’04 draft QB) has 2, and Brees (the QB Rivers replaced) has 1. And the run that the Tebows went on drove me crazy. So called analysts claiming that they’d take Tebow over Rivers because “Tebow is clutch and he just wins.”
And the whole “win a Super Bowl or you suck” criteria for QBs is blatantly unfair. Is Trent Dilfer better than Dan Marino because Dilfer won a SB and Marino didn’t?
BASKETBALL REASONS Y'ALL.




































