San Diego Chargers: Defending the Larry English Draft Selection
by John Gennaro on Nov 22, 2011 12:32 PM PST
in BFTB Editorials
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PrintToday we're going to be talking about Larry English. Same deal as yesterday, when I went back and tried to figure out why the San Diego Chargers selected Buster Davis in 2007. Why did the Chargers pick Larry English and was it the right move at the time?
Team Need
This was not a hard math problem to figure out. In 2007, the Chargers defense was dominating and finished the year with the league lead in turnovers (10 interceptions for Antonio Cromartie alone). In 2008, Shawne Merriman missed the entire season and the pass-rush died. Along with it went the Chargers' strong defense and any ability to create turnovers (they finished 2008 ranked 17th in turnovers and 31st in pass defense).
Merriman was slated to return from knee surgery in 2009, but A.J. Smith had to plan for the worst. He needed a strong OLB as security for Merriman's knee, as well as Merriman's impending big contract demands. The secondary was there, as was the rest of the defense, but it needed a pass-rush to go. Larry English was that guy that was supposed to make the 2009 Chargers return to their 2007 glory long-term.
Other immediate team needs included RG (Mike Goff was leaving), ILB (Tim Dobbins needed to be replaced) and WR (Chris Chambers was showing his age). Eventual team needs sprang up during the season, like SS (Clinton Hart was weak without a strong pass-rush) and NT (Jamal Williams went down with an injury early in the season).
Free Agency
Another case of an immediate need that should've been filled via free agency (as was the ILB spot with Kevin Burnett), but there was no viable free agent candidates. Here are the best pass-rushers available to be signed that offseason:
- Jason Taylor (coming off a poor showing with the Redskins)
- Travis LaBoy
- Tully Banta-Cain
- Aaron Maybin (11th overall!)
- Brian Orakpo
- Larry English
- Robert Ayers
- Clay Matthews
- Everette Brown (2nd round)
- Connor Barwin (2nd round)
One of the premier pass rushers in the collegiate game, English ranks second to Phillip Hunt of Houston (33.5 sacks for minus 229 yards) among the NCAA's active players with 31.5 sacks for losses totaling 220 yards. His 31.5 sacks set the school all-time record and rank fifth in Mid-American Conference history. That total also ranks seventh in NCAA annals. His five sacks vs. Idaho in 2007 is topped by just two other players on the NCAA single-game record books.English wreaked havoc in the opposing backfields throughout his career. His 63.0 tackles behind the line of scrimmage set the school career record and rank fifth on the NCAA all-time record chart (the NCAA began compiling sack and tackle for loss totals beginning in 2000), as he is just the seventh player in major college annals to register 60 or more tackles for loss since those statistics were recognized by the NCAA.
English was seen as a great pass-rusher, run-stopper and team leader. He'd be the perfect replacement for Shawne Merriman.....right?
Bad Luck/Injuries
There was one part of that scouting report on English that caught my eye. Here it is:
His banner junior campaign came to a crashing halt in the Poinsettia Bowl, as he suffered a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his knee that would require surgery.
The injury bug continued in 2008, as English suffered a torn pectoral muscle in spring drills. He played nearly all season with pins in his broken thumb, but he still led the team with eight sacks and 16 stops behind the line of scrimmage, ranking fourth and third, respectively, in each category among MAC players.
Buster Davis had a few normal college injuries, but this seems overwhelming. A torn ACL, a broken thumb and a torn pectoral muscle all in the same calendar year? Most of his injuries in the NFL have been related to his feet, which leads me to believe that the training staff missed something when trying to make sure that his ACL, thumb and pectoral were fully healed.
When he got on the field and was healthy, English did a good job of pressuring the QB and seemed to be getting close to turning those pressures into sacks after his rookie season. Unfortunately, we'll probably never get to see what English could be if he was able to stay healthy for a few years and play as a starter in the NFL.
Both of these picks, English and Davis, get brought up in the criticism of A.J. Smith. Neither one was necessarily untalented, just injury-prone. That leads me to believe that we're blaming the wrong person/people. We should be blaming the doctors or training staff that gave Smith the okay to draft these guys. For the most part, Smith was just following the blueprint of filling a need with what seemed like the most talented player at that position in the draft.
As far as where English was selected, many people found out on draft day that the New England Patriots were planning on drafting English a few picks after the Chargers. After English was selected, the Patriots traded their pick away to the Ravens, who traded it to the Packers....who selected Clay Matthews. If you think the Chargers are kicking themselves for landing an injury-prone Larry English with Matthews still on the board, imagine how the Patriots feel for trading away the pick after English was taken instead of selecting Matthews as a consolation prize.
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That year, I hoped for Orakpo
and Mathews second.
Dielman on Rivers: "I've tried to get him to say s--- or f--- and all he'll ever do is say, 'Golly gee, I can't do that."
Bolts from the Blue
Could we get a Countdown to Castillo's return?
by Superduperboltman on Nov 22, 2011 12:39 PM PST reply actions
I wasn't sure about Orakpo
But he proved me wrong. I barely knew anything about English, but he was rated around late first early second.
Just hope Liuget can pan out. Whats your take on him so far?
rookie d-linemen in the 3-4
are impossible to rate. Almost every good 3-4 d-lineman did very little in their first season.
Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.
by John Gennaro on Nov 22, 2011 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
Liuget's got a lot to learn
but the potential is there. He’s fierce and plays hard, but the NFL is way different than college and he’s yet to learn that. I think halfway through next year he should be established.
Dielman on Rivers: "I've tried to get him to say s--- or f--- and all he'll ever do is say, 'Golly gee, I can't do that."
Bolts from the Blue
Could we get a Countdown to Castillo's return?
by Superduperboltman on Nov 22, 2011 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not great at watching linemen play
but it seems like Liuget started off pretty well this year, for the most part. Lately, I haven’t even noticed that he’s out there.
"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner
by Cake or Death on Nov 22, 2011 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
I was hoping for Orakpo too
but will admit Matthews was not on my short list. Once Orakpo was gone I was expecting Maualuga.
This
but I think Burnett was a good alternative.
Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.
by John Gennaro on Nov 22, 2011 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with that
actually after i did my research on English I was more than happy with going with English over Maualuga, especially since a lot of teams passed on Maualuga.
Yet we are still in search of a fulltime
MLB who will be able to play for us everydown for a number of years… I think you can scheme a pass-rush but what you cannot scheme is solid inside play.. (see Oakland losses).
Great write-up
I’ve been trying to defend the theory behind the pick for several years, and some people just fail to realize how much of a crapshoot the draft can be…especially when it comes to drafting a player that played 4-3 DE all through college and projecting him to be a 3-4 OLB…or just pass rushers in general. It is not an exact science, as much we like to think that it is.
pass-rushers seem particularly difficult to draft
I remember some people even thinking that Terrell Suggs wouldn’t be much of a pass-rusher once he got to the NFL.
Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.
by John Gennaro on Nov 22, 2011 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
I think it is hard to predict for many reasons
but the biggest one arises from the fact that elite offensive linemen are more rare than pass rushers. In college a pass rusher does not go up against an elite offensive tackle every game…heck, many players go their whole college career without playing against an elite offensive tackle. In the NFL, they are going up against an elite offensive tackles every week. To beat those guys you need a non-stop motor, and your pass rushing moves and technique need to be perfect. Pass rushers in college can get by on pure athleticism, so it is hard to predict which ones will be able to adapt those pass rush moves and technique the best.
What is the purpose of this series?
Clay Matthews WAS expected to be a baller just like his dad was and the rest of the USC linebacking corps that was annihilating everybody that year. When English got picked, a collective “Who?” went up all over San Diego. He was on nobody’s 1st round draft boards that year. Nobody’s.
I also don't understand this
In Matthews’ only year as a starter, he collected 4.5 sacks. In three years as a starter, English got 11.5, 10.5 and 8.0 sacks. If you were looking for a pass-rusher to start right away, it’s probably best to choose the guy that has more experience and more success rushing the passer.
Matthews also wasn’t viewed as a prospect until his Senior season (he was a backup/special teams player before that), and gained a suspicious amount of size and muscle right before that season. There were even more whispers about Cushing and steroids (which eventually got him in trouble), so it wouldn’t surprise me if the Chargers thought he might be a flash-in-the-pan type player.
Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.
by John Gennaro on Nov 22, 2011 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Picking English was more of a problem than not picking Matthews
there is really no getting around that English had a 2nd round grade and he has played like that grade.
I think English was truly a wiff by AJ. Pointing out that Belicheck also wiffed doesn’t make it any better since Belicheck has also had a pretty poor drafting record. I think AJ let himself believe that character was as important as talent. Remember at this time Merriman was doing colossally dumb stuff like not getting surgery when the team wanted him to and getting too into Hollywood. At the same time Phillips was on the police blotter pretty regularly. And Foley had recently been shot by an off-duty cop after a drunken drive from downtown to Poway. I think AJ decided enough was enough and picked someone who wouldn’t get in trouble or be a distraction… Not a bad plan, but he just picked him too high. The draft is enough of a crap-shoot without over drafting players.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Nov 22, 2011 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree completely.
The first round isn’t for projects—it’s for impact players. English had a second round grade and the team knew it would take time for him to develop. That’s not good enough for the 16th overall pick.
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by Zach (maestro876) on Nov 22, 2011 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
True
But we are talking about a Pac -10 player on a LOADED team. Anybody starting for that squad should have been rated and selected above ANYBODY from the MAC conference, unless the talent of that player clearly overshadowed Mattthews. Not to mention that you were projecting him to play a completely different position than the one he played in the MAC. I wanted Maualuga in that spot also. He has been good for Cincy, and we wouldn’t need to have an over 30 MLB starting for us. Also Ayers has not been terrible on a less talented Denver team. At least they have seen the field, and stayed on it.
It has a lot to do with the level of competition..
Matthews played at USC in a much better conference than English. LE came from the Mac where there’s hardly any talent to compete against. I was really hoping for Mathews or Maualuga. Like the guy above siad, when we selected English, I was like WHO? Never herd of the guy. I’m sure he could be good if he stayed healthy, but damn, after reading what you wrote about all his injuries that he suffered in 1 year, I am now blown away on why we even took the risk on him.
After next season, you’ll be writing about DEFENDING THE RYAN MATHEWS PICK everyone knew that he was an injury risk and we moved up to grab him. I wasn’t that thrilled with the Mathews pick. I hope he can become what the Chargers hoped he’d be when they made the move to draft him. Ben Tate was the RB I was hoping for the Chargers to draft in the 2nd round. It’s too damn bad, he’s a beast for Houston as a part timer.
For some dumb reason, the Chargers continue to take high risk’s in high rounds for injury proned players. That has a lot to do with why this team has been struggling, because all the supposed play makers we drafted can’t seem to stay on the field. I hope next years draft, we dn’t take any chances on injury risk players. It’s like AJ has had 1 or 2 good drafts and has blown it since.
by BOLTUREYE on Nov 22, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Matthews
Ran well at the combine.
Had the family/genetics going for him.
I remember a lot of talk of him going mid first round.
A lot of poepl thought that the paatriots were going to take him.
I was really excited that we were going to take him becuase i had watched a lot of USC games.
I think we passed on malaluaga becuase of the DUI/alcohol issues.
by Norcal Boltfan on Nov 22, 2011 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
Good essay. One nitpick:
That leads me to believe that we’re blaming the wrong person/people. We should be blaming the doctors or training staff that gave Smith the okay to draft these guys.
How do we know the medical staff didn’t warn Smith but he decided English was worth the risk and took him anyway.
Also, an injured knee, thumb and pec are a lot of injuries in one year, but they’re unrealted to each other. At what point does a guy with three seemingly random injuries go from “unlucky” to “injury prone/injury risk”. I’d imagine that’s the secret sauce that sports medical people are always in search of.
So I guess this means the Phillies making it past the 1st round of the 2010 post season was a fluke.
Conference should carry some weight as well
He played in the MAC- you know, that powerhouse conference for 1st round picks?
You spend a 1st, you’d better dot as many "i"s & cross as many "t"s as you possibly can.
If the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will!!
Robert Hunter
My biggest beef with this pick is that I remember reading how English is not physically built for the position and really was a 4-3 backer not explosive enough or long enough to make the transition.
kind of like how they talk about an oline tackle needing long arms and certain physical traits required for success.
English was a reach, I firmly believe that, his health and on field performance have proven so
by troyd on Nov 22, 2011 5:33 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Maualuga
was my pick. I was livid when he picked English. Rey Maualuga would have wreaked havoc on opposing teams had he been drafted, especially in the same linebacking corps as Shaun Phillips.
he and Phillips
would have also wreaked havoc on local bouncers.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Nov 23, 2011 8:37 AM PST up reply actions
Two problems with this article.
1. When they were healthy, they were uneffective or inactive. Never once did we see a flash from either player.
2. Larry’s only pass rush move in college was a speed rush…..meaning he used his speed and quickness to beat D2 offensive tackles. HUGE RED FLAG. You need rips, swims, clubs, double moves and spins to get to the QB in the NFL. He never showed a single one.
3. Buster was never healthy in college.
and
a 3-4 OLB needs a bull rush!!! You have to have the power threat to balance the speed threat.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Nov 23, 2011 8:38 AM PST up reply actions
Career Stats
Maybin – 29 Tackles – 3 sacks – 4 FF
Orakpo – 145 tackles – 25 sacks – 4 FF – 6 PD
English – 60 tackles – 7 sacks – 1 FF
Ayers – 83 tackles – 3.5 sacks – 2 FF – 5 PD
Matthews – 141 tackles – 28.5 sacks – 4 FF – 16 PD
Barwin – 42 tackles – 9 sacks – 9 PD
Brown – 49 tackles – 6 sacks – 3 FF – 3 PD
Looks like 2 very good players and meh.
Gain true enlightenement
Please enlighten us with an article titled, “San Diego Chargers: Defending the Norv Turner Head Coaching Selection”
by S.D. Native on Nov 22, 2011 8:40 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
LoL!!...Turnerites Infection In Terminally Ill Recipient -n- Treatment: Cut Off The Head Throw Away The Body!!
That’s kinda what happened to us but than back when nothing in the Raider Nation was working well…At least you got some good years out of him but can’t help to think what could have been with another at the helm??
But that’s NOT why I showed up…Here to wish you well and pray (Pun) that you find a way to stop this “AniMule” because we have failed…As have the Jets…
Run Away Tebownco!!!
"Tebowphobe"!!!
if I remember corrcectly
I saw an articl that bsaid english was a dfnsiv nd in a 4-3 alignmnt and they didn’t know id he would be able to mak the transition to an outside linebackr in a 3-4. He didn’t, nuff said.
Demarcus Ware, LaMaar Woodley, Tamba Hali
and pretty much every 3-4 Outside linebacker was a 4-3 Defensive end in college.
nuff said.
Dielman on Rivers: "I've tried to get him to say s--- or f--- and all he'll ever do is say, 'Golly gee, I can't do that."
Bolts from the Blue
Could we get a Countdown to Castillo's return?
by Superduperboltman on Nov 23, 2011 5:44 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
indeed
very few college defenses run a 3-4. And about half the NFL defenses run a 3-4. Plus there are a crap-ton of college 4-3 DEs who are too small to be NFL 4-3 DEs. Thus, “tweener” 4-3 DEs become 3-4 OLBs in the NFL
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Nov 23, 2011 8:40 AM PST up reply actions
That's a very interesting write-up
But lets forget about the whole pass-rusher for pass-rusher comparison just for a second because we are talking about a 1st round pick. In my opinion a 1st round pick HAS to be someone who is going to start immediately, or at the very least have the talent that will put that player on the field (as a starter) within the first two seasons of them being drafted. With that being said look who else we could have selected instead of Larry English:
1st round:
Jeremy Maclin (wr)
Brandon Pettigrew (te)
Percy Harvin (wr/rb)
Michael Oher (ol/movie star)
vontae davis (db)
Clay Matthews (lb)
Hakeem Nicks (wr)
Kenny Britt (wr)
2nd round (we had no 2nd round draft pick – meaning we could have traded down possibly in the 1st to get a 2nd):
Louis Delmas (s)
Patrick Chung (s)
James Laurinites (ILB)
Rey Maualgua (ILB)
Jairius Byrd (db)
Max Unger (ol)
LeSean McCoy (rb)
3rd Round:
Shon Greene (rb)
Derek Cox (cb)
DeAndre Levy (olb)
Our 3rd Round Pick: Louis Vasquez (OG)
Who else did we draft that year:
1st – Larry English (bust)
3rd – Louis Vasquez (starting)
4th – Vaugn Martin (journeyman type)
4th – Tyronne Green (who?)
4th – Gatrell Johnson (who?)
5th – Brandon Hughes (….)
6th – Kevin Ellison (…..)
7th – Demetrius Byrd (….)
So outta 8 picks we got a keeper in Louis Vasquez. The rest are replaceable, forgettable or forgotten. The Larry English pick was a reach period. Everyone knew the upside and downside for this player. He was without question worthy of being drafted in the NFL but his well document challenges as an everydown player let alone anything other than a pure pass rusher (who also couldn’t rush with his hand down) was well known. We just took the chance that we knew better than everyone else. But that ultimately is the problem…. ITS YOUR 1st ROUND PICK and you didn’t have 2nd rounder! This pick HAS TO BE BONAFIDE!!!!
Why do you do this...
…and get me all depressed before the holidays? Great write-up though. I think AJ gets too much credit for his supposed talent evaluation skills. People seem to only remember the good and not any of the bad. Now, he is definitely a better GM than most, but honestly, if we do have to get rid of Norv this year, AJ needs to be sent packing too.
i assume players not listed were not that good
So 7 in the first, 7 in the second (14/30).
So if AJ was following the “best guy available” rule, he had a 46% chance of getting someone useful.
I am looking at his picks, and 2004-06 was awesome. He missed with his top pick in 2007-09, which if you assume if 50/50 shot at getting someone good, doing that three years in a row is pretty bad. Matthews is still up in the air, same with Liuget.
I am OK with AJ. Maybe not the best, but far, far from the worst with some history to show he could do some magic.
But he has to man up and get rid of Turner. That was his call, and he needs to take accountability. And mentor Stamos Jr. Jr. for another decade or so.
Yeah
But it is hard to stay competitive when you whiff on 3 consecutive 1st rd picks. Especially considering that late rd picks are usually back of the roster filler at best. At some point you need to take the best player available. Oher, Nicks, Britt or Maclin would all look good in uniform now. We might not have NEEDED them at the time but they would be integral parts now.
Lame to Defend this Pick...
…For all of the reasons mentioned above. Since Merriman, every 1st round pick by the Chargers has been suspect at best. MacDeezul – thank you for reminding us how the 2009 draft was such a great bounty. John, I like your column, but you are putting a rosy spin on this one. AJ has failed us and must go – Norv I kissed off a while ago. It is time for a change. I think people put up with the status quo when they are afraid to make a change – they would rather live with mediocrity that deal with an uncertain future. Embrace it – how can it be any worse?!?!
Oh yeah – Happy Thanksgiving!
Slight Correction
…every 1st round pick except Liuget – he looks good!
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