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Around SBN: Despite Relocation Drama, Coyotes Overcome Adversity

Larry English has a Broken Foot, is a Bust

Quarterback Kyle Orton #8 of the Denver Broncos is sacked by linebacker Larry English #52 of the San Diego Chargers.  (Photo by Stephen Dunn/Getty Images)

This one stings. Two days after the "Fire Norv" bandwagon got going again, the "Fire A.J. Smith" bandwagon is being pulled out of the garage. First, the news from the Silver Fox:

Larry English broke his foot again. Uh-oh. Team has not made move yet.
Oct 25 via OpenBeakFavoriteRetweetReply

 

Considering the recovery time for a broken bone is probably 6-8 weeks, and that time does not include getting back into game shape, it's a good bet that English can expect to finish the 2011 season on the Injured Reserve list once again. Foot injuries have plagued the former first-round pick his entire career.

Larry's contract with the Chargers gives him a raise in 2012 and 2013, paying him over $1 million per season (he made $740k this year). I don't think it's a long shot to say that English's time in San Diego might be finished unless he reworks that deal. In a word, Larry is a draft 'bust'.

After the jump, a brief rundown of A.J. Smith's draft history.

Star-divide

I know a lot of you are going to want to react to this injury by saying that A.J. Smith has lost his touch for drafting. You're wrong. Smith simply went through a drafting slump, for whatever reason, in 2007-2009 after having two amazing drafts in 2005-2006.

2005: Maybe the best NFL draft class ever. Shawne Merriman, Luis Castillo, Vincent Jackson, Darren Sproles and Scott Mruczkowski? Wow.

2006: Antonio Cromartie, Marcus McNeill, Charlie Whitehurst, Tim Dobbins and Jeromey Clary were all either starters or brought back starters for the Chargers. This is when A.J.'s star was shining brightest.

2007: The first post-Marty draft. Nobody is left from this draft except for Paul Oliver (who was signed after Bob Sanders was injured) and Eric Weddle. Buster Davis, Anthony Waters, Scott Chandler....you get the idea.

2008: Antoine Cason, Jacob Hester and nothing. Cason would've been a good second-rounder, but has yet to shown himself as a legitimate first-round talent in the NFL.

2009: The picks after the first round got better. Louis Vasquez, Tyronne Green and Vaughn Martin are looking like solid selections in rounds 3 and 4. Everything else sucks, including Larry English as the 16th overall pick.

2010: This draft looks above-average right now. Ryan Mathews and Donald Butler look like stars. Darrell Stuckey and Cam Thomas are solid backups working their way up. 

2011: Can't review this one yet, but Corey Liuget and Marcus Gilchrist look good so far. Vincent Brown has looked good when healthy, and Andrew Gachkar is exactly what the team wanted/needed.

 

See? So he's getting better, not worse. Nobody drafts classes like A.J. did in 2005-2006 every year. It's impossible to do. He's taken too big of risks with his high draft picks probably because he bought into the whole "A.J. is a genius" thing, but the Mathews and Liuget picks were safer and have seemingly paid off more.

Do not fire A.J.

Comment 78 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Sigh....

So where do we go from here…man this kid has had a disappointing career.

by TioTheo on Oct 25, 2011 11:14 AM PDT reply actions  

Also consider

AJ is one of the best at picking up UDFA as well as street free agents.

by cameronm on Oct 25, 2011 11:14 AM PDT reply actions  

That's not necessarily on him

UDFA’s can try out for any team that they want. There is always a huge crop of UDFAs in Chargers camp, so we usually have our pick of the litter.

Personally I think it is more of a testament to the Charger’s player development programs.

by Ferguson1015 on Oct 25, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

True

Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.

by John Gennaro on Oct 25, 2011 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I had hope for the kid

But it looks like he is going to have to be one of those picks that got away. Maybe he can contribute to another team and we can be bitter toward management then.

by Ferguson1015 on Oct 25, 2011 11:15 AM PDT reply actions  

Oh well

it’s not like he did much when he was on the field anyway (other than the one 2 sack game).

"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner

by Cake or Death on Oct 25, 2011 11:22 AM PDT reply actions  

So where do we go from here?

"follow @radio2012, trust me, you will find his optimism, innocence, and honesty quite refreshing. as a jaded bastard, i sure do." justdave2103

http://twitter.com/#!/radio2012

by Jonathan Holmes on Oct 25, 2011 11:23 AM PDT reply actions  

Looks like we need OLB.

Any good free agents?

I hate scooter pie

by Lmbs2slaghtr on Oct 25, 2011 11:24 AM PDT reply actions  

Ummm...

Tully Banta-Cain?
Jyles Tucker?
Brandon Lang?

Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.

by John Gennaro on Oct 25, 2011 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

he said GOOD free agents.

Dielman on Rivers: "I've tried to get him to say s--- or f--- and all he'll ever do is say, 'Golly gee, I can't do that."
Bolts from the Blue

by Superduperboltman on Oct 25, 2011 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think it is a case of looking towards the future draft(s)

Time to dig back through all of the “Scouting for Future Chargers” posts by Wonko so see what OLB prospects there are.

by Ferguson1015 on Oct 25, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well this sucks..

I had hopes for Larry, but so far, we keep drafting injury prone players. I guess we can throw Cason in on that bust list pretty soon.

by BOLTUREYE on Oct 25, 2011 11:32 AM PDT reply actions  

"I guess we can throw Cason in on that bust list pretty soon."

No, we can’t. Not soon at all.

Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.

by John Gennaro on Oct 25, 2011 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

not until Monday when Gilchrist is starting…

by Stephen (shaynes41) on Oct 25, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

We might be able to.

First round pick? Really? He had a good streak last year and if he is so mentally unstable that his confidence can make his level of play swing that much we don’t want him anyways. Look at Jammer, he is consistent if nothing else, never amazing but never anything less than really really good. That is much more desirable than an all-pro one week followed by a high-schooler.

by bstew95 on Oct 25, 2011 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not even close.

Bolts from the Blue // "Go for the throat, Norval." - Jim Rome
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan

by Richard Wade on Oct 25, 2011 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cason isn't injury prone

And at least he has been a starter for awhile

I hate scooter pie

by Lmbs2slaghtr on Oct 25, 2011 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's not bad

He is just not great. Last season he was very good

by Scard on Oct 25, 2011 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ya just never know

He had the long arms. During the draft we kinda talked ourselves into his upsides. In the end it really wasn’t his skill set, it was the missed time.

Still had more game time than CBD, but overall English was a loosing money proposision.

by Trendsearcher on Oct 25, 2011 11:36 AM PDT reply actions  

I thought he did NOT have long arms

and that this fact alone made John quite skeptical about his ability to succeed.

A pirate I was meant to be!
"You say you're nasty pirates,
scheming, thieving, bad bushwackers?
From what I've seen I tell you
You're not pirates, you're just slackers!"

by Zach (maestro876) on Oct 25, 2011 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I must be 180 out on this

… But I remember his size being a negative for a 3-4 DE. And the long arms being his upside. No question I get mixed up sometimes.

by Trendsearcher on Oct 25, 2011 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

He was never a 3-4 DE

He was a 3-4 OLB. I remember thinking his arms were too short, but I think I just did the eyeball test on that one.

Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.

by John Gennaro on Oct 25, 2011 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

No. he was to small to be a DE in 3-4

he played as a DE in college, in a 4-3 defense.

The peanut gallery has spoken!!!

by gatesoftds on Oct 25, 2011 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

If they fire Norv...

they have to fire AJ too I would think. Looking at his draft history, it is definitely above average, but not stellar either. Not to mention, we let Sproles go. I think that is a big part of our game we are missing and it cuts me like a knife seeing him putting up good numbers in NO. Then we can get into last season as well with the Vjax and McNeill holdouts goes as it without saying that missing those two guys definitely hurt us. Sooner or later AJ just needs to open the pocketbook to retain some talent and put aside his ego.

by David rzr on Oct 25, 2011 11:45 AM PDT reply actions  

"Sooner or later AJ just needs to open up the pocketbook to retain some talent and put aside his ego"?

Ahem…Eric Weddle, Marcus McNeill, Antonio Gates, Philip Rivers all got signed to long term contracts in the last couple seasons. He was also able to fight off other teams to keep Antwan Barnes and Malcom Floyd in free agency this offseason. Money is a finite thing under the salary cap, you can’t pay EVERYONE. I’m gonna bet that Jackson will get added to that list as well…

by jkvandal on Oct 25, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Agreed...

AJ’s draft term may be above average but definitely not stellar. Who wants above average, it’s not going to get us what we all want and “the Lord” still doesn’t have.
Besides, is there really a coach at this point that we can be optimistic about taking us into and beyond a conference championship working under AJ Smith?

by dawnpatrol111 on Oct 25, 2011 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

How many stellar GM's are there in the league? How many above average?

You really think any above average GM is readily available for the Chargers to bring in? The same goes for coaches.

AJ would get snapped up in a second by several other teams out there

by jkvandal on Oct 25, 2011 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Half are above the median. Hard to say if half are above the average.

Bolts from the Blue // "Go for the throat, Norval." - Jim Rome
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan

by Richard Wade on Oct 25, 2011 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fair Enuff.

(Although I gave myself median-mean variance wiggle room with my “About”)

by Orz on Oct 25, 2011 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

That you did.

Bolts from the Blue // "Go for the throat, Norval." - Jim Rome
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan

by Richard Wade on Oct 25, 2011 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well let's look at that list shall we,

Weddle-very solid worth money so far.
McNeill-Is he ever really going to get that neck taken care of? When healthy worth the money.
Gates- Other-worldly when healthy unfortunately we may be seeing the very rapid decline of his career.
Rivers-The best player on the chargers, outside of this year.
Floyd-See McNeil
Barnes-worth it.
So that list has two players worth the money, three (I’m actually not sure McNeil deserves this designation) players that can never seem to be healthy for us now, and THE GUY on the chargers who we all love and know will do better but for some reason isn’t right now.

I’m just venting, and playing devil’s advocate. We’re all upset the guys on this list aren’t doing better.

by bstew95 on Oct 25, 2011 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do NOT fire AJ

I was on the Norv bandwagon for a while but it’s getting harder to stay optimistic about him. Marty’s teams played more solid football and that’s sad to say. If Norv was gone at the end of the year, I’d be pretty content. If AJ was fired, I’d be really worried.

by SDreal on Oct 25, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok...

So fire Norv but don’t fire the guy who hired Norv and ran off Marty?

by David rzr on Oct 26, 2011 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Here is the issue

There seems to be a Daddy/Mommy dynamic between AJ and Norv that is harming the team. Daddy pulls VJax’s tender at $3MM and slams it down to $600K (or whatever). Mommy on the other hand grants title to positions and won’t pull a player or make a change (Cason after 2 TDs in the redzone). The point is that there is no balance between GM & HC, as AJ dominates and Norv tries to keep the players happy like a battered wife. I’m not saying AJ can’t pick players or run a team, I’m saying he either needs to get a coach that serves as a counter balance or get another job.

by Froggy184 on Oct 25, 2011 12:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Wow

I don’t even know where to begin.

Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.

by John Gennaro on Oct 25, 2011 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Beat me to it.

"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner

by Cake or Death on Oct 25, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Paging Doctor Freud...

"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner

by Cake or Death on Oct 25, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

You must be an insider that works at Chargers park

Because the only other explanation for everything you said is that it’s pure speculation…but that can’t be the case, can it?

by jkvandal on Oct 25, 2011 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Trolling or just from a different planet?

Bolts from the Blue // "Go for the throat, Norval." - Jim Rome
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan

by Richard Wade on Oct 25, 2011 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well i held out as long as i could, but it's time to move on.

with guys like Antwain Barnes, and Gamble itching to get some more playing time i don’t see the Chargers can spin this.

The peanut gallery has spoken!!!

by gatesoftds on Oct 25, 2011 12:35 PM PDT reply actions  

Why not Gamble?

He was playing so well in the preseason. I guess he’s not doing in practice or what? Has anyone heard anything about how he’s been looking?

by SDreal on Oct 25, 2011 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

few UDFA rookies

will really be able to contribute year 1, it’s just too big a jump. Preseason is usually against other scrubs. He really needs a year of off-season work to be a contributor. He is still a prospect, just not ready to contribute on Sundays.

by Stephen (shaynes41) on Oct 26, 2011 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

so the other teams fans should be yelling at their gm's for that too

fact is he missed it. and we have a right to be upset about that.

by bstew95 on Oct 25, 2011 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

But

How many of those teams run a 3-4 D?

If the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will!!

Robert Hunter

by Buck Melanoma on Oct 26, 2011 1:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

trainwreck

the 2009 1st round was a crapshoot for OLB talent:
11: Maybin – bust
13: Orakapo – pro-bowl
15: English – bust
18: Ayers – bust
26: Mathews – pro-bowl

by Stephen (shaynes41) on Oct 25, 2011 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thank you

Bolts from the Blue - Destroying your opinions with facts.

by John Gennaro on Oct 25, 2011 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

My biggest gripe at the time of the draft was that we didn’t trade down to select English. Obviously that is easier said than done though. I don’t think anyone else in the world though English was a mid-1st round talent.

by BFDC on Oct 25, 2011 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Everyone though AJ reached at the time

That, as it turns out, was an understatement.

by SDreal on Oct 25, 2011 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

So very, very rec'd.

Bolts from the Blue // "Go for the throat, Norval." - Jim Rome
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan

by Richard Wade on Oct 25, 2011 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Merriman to IR

in Buffalo, FWIW.

"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner

by Cake or Death on Oct 25, 2011 1:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Speaking of Buffalo

Is a draft pick considered a “bust” if he pans out for another team (re: Scott Chandler)?

by TennesseeTuxeD'Oh! on Oct 25, 2011 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hold on there

Chandler hasn’t had a good game in a month.

"The biggest thing..." - Norv Turner

by Cake or Death on Oct 25, 2011 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've backed him until now: Fire Norv.

I"m on furlough myself right now, so it pains me to wish this for anyone, but the guy’s bank account undoubtedly has many more digits in it than mine, so…

Norv offers experience, patience, tenacity, etc.. He does not offer a playoff or championship edge. This team needs one. English being a bust is small potatoes compared to Norv’s lack of edge. AJ being unbrilliant in the draft is a big deal, but coaching trumps even that. I don’t feel sorry for Norv, because his knowledge and ability will keep him coaching for someone else for years to come if he wants that.

Most importantly, the team needs to find the right coach. This needs to be a smart guy who is not full of himself – more of an athletic geek. A guy who looks to the college game for innovation and then adapts it to something wholly new for the pro game. He doesn’t have to be the most interesting man (or woman) in the world, but he should do stuff like scuba dive so he can get weird inspiration from the way smaller fish school to divert a predator (e.g., kick returner).

by Muncie on Oct 25, 2011 3:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Wanna know what makes me feel better about this?

That Clay Matthews was drafted after him.

Its all about 18

by celticsox937 on Oct 25, 2011 3:29 PM PDT reply actions  

And Maybin was drafted before him.

Bolts from the Blue // "Go for the throat, Norval." - Jim Rome
Bloody Elbow // "I think we're poking fun at Leland's 'boner.'" - Michael Fagan

by Richard Wade on Oct 25, 2011 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lord of No Rings

was given that title for a reason. And I think most people want him fired because 1. his refusal to give up on Norv and 2. his dependance on the draft rather than FAs. I know signing a bunch of big name free agents doesn’t guarantee you squat (Philly Eagles) but Smith’s stubbornness gets in the way of the team’s success, IMO. He’s made some great draft choices but the Norv thing bothers me the most.

by riversonfire on Oct 25, 2011 6:47 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Chronic Enablers

Of mediocrity , congrats ! Trying to make a case of recent drafts being “above average” are classic signs of a sycophant . Destroying what with what ? Try factoring in the picks given up for guys like Hester , Weddle and Mathews and the shining star that is AJ dims to a matchlight . It’s a given that every draft has both sleepers and busts and the success rate varies , but the teams that get quality starters with early picks reap the benefit of first contract production , something the Chargers have seen very little of . The rectal thermometer insight proffered by sycophants does little but enable the mediocrity to continue ad nauseum . There’s a reason division rivals are closing in or passing the Bolts , better personnel decisions , not happenstance . Try expecting more , it’s within one’s rights. When Mathews get IR’ed what excuse can we expect ? Didn’t see it coming ? Larry English had an injury filled collegiate career , just as Mathews did , ignoring those facts exposed the personnel dept. as either foolish or myopic .

by threecubed on Oct 26, 2011 8:22 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

No wonder the Chargers suck

If we think that our 2005 draft was “[m]aybe the best NFL draft class ever”, we are delusional and bunch of homers.

What about the Chicago Bears draft that yielded two hall of famers, some say the best at their respective positions, Dick Butkus and Gale Sayers? What about the 1974 Pittsburgh Steeler draft that yielded four hall of famers, Swann, Webster, Lambert, and Stallworth? Even the 1975 Charger draft is probably better than 2005. I think I would rather have Johnson, Williams, Kelcher, Dean, and Shields than Merriman, Castillo, Jackson, Sproles and Mruczkowski. In 1975, we have one hofer and another one that is always lurking on the ballot. None of the 2005 guys, other than Jackson, has a shot at it. And, I say that about Jackson because he’s the only one whose career may possibly be worthy of consideration.

by The Gorn on Oct 26, 2011 9:22 AM PDT reply actions  

I wish I could edit my post

Jackson’s career as it is now is not HOF bound; however, his continued development may put him on that path.

by The Gorn on Oct 26, 2011 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wow, quite the turnout

My main point about all of this is, sooner or later you have to fire the guy making the decisions. What, should we be surprised that Norv is the loser everyone said he was? He is a great offensive mind, but is not a good HC. Going back to my point, it is AJ’s fault as much as it is Norv’s at this point, because he hired Norv and ran off the last coach.

How long did it take for the Lions to can coach after coach before they rightfully fired Millen? Now definitely not comparing AJ to Millen, but it still goes to the point that sooner or later the GM must be held accountable for the talent on the field and the coaching staff he signs to guide that talent. IF you fire Norv, you must fire AJ.

by David rzr on Oct 26, 2011 1:25 PM PDT reply actions  

Let's wait and see how this season pans out

If the trendline continues, we will finish a .500 team or just slightly below .500. If that is the case, with the team regressing every year under Turner, you have to pull the trigger then. I do not want to see ownership ride this coach/GM tandem back to the place we were10 years ago; a 3-13 team we could barely stand watching. If PR does not get his s—t together, that may be coming sooner and not later…

North Texas REALLY needs a Rubio's franchise.

by SDNativeinTX on Oct 26, 2011 3:11 PM PDT reply actions  

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