The Buck Doesnt Stop at Norv Turner
by RichK223 on Jan 2, 2011 4:42 PM PST
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PrintAfter an unsuccessful season, most of the fans will agree that a change needs to be made at Head Coach and Norv Turner needs to be let go. I do not disagree with this that Norv Turner needs to be let go, but I think that this will only be a superficial solution and will not fix the Chargers in the long run.
Yes Norv Turner must go, but AJ Smith must be let go as well. I know I will hear a lot about the talent evaluation skills of AJ Smith. He is able to mine talent from the late rounds of drafts. Granted I do not deny the man's talent evalution skills, but he has a very strong personality with tons of hubris and uses abrasive negotiation techniques which in turn alienates players and potential free agents.
How can I call for the firing of a man who has consistently drafted players who contribute and are stars from the late rounds of the draft? A man who took Shaun Phillips in the 4th round, Michael Turner in the 3rd round, and found talents as undrafted free agents in Antonio Gates and Antonio Garay?
AJ Smith's strong personality has led to direct conflicts with his previous head coach, Marty Schottenheimer. Marty, who was a coach with a strong personality clashed with AJ. So AJ goes out and hires Norv Turner, a likeable guy, with an agreeable personality who will not challenge AJ. This means, that if Norv Turner is fired, AJ Smith will find another guy who will not disagree with AJ and who will not challenge AJ. This means strong personalities like Jon Gruden and Bill Cowher will not be hired as a coach. Another laid back coach like Norv will mean that the Chargers' problems with slow starts will not be answered.
AJ Smith's abrasive negotiation techniques are detrimental to the Chargers. AJ Smith played hardball with VIncent Jackson and Marcus McNeill. First of all, I am sure that had the Chargers had both of these players in the beginning of the season, they would have won 1 or 2 more wins to push them into the playoffs. But more importantly, these hardball negotiations with players alienate potential free agents and damage relationships with these players.
OK, so teams hold out and cannot come to terms during contract negotiations. Then the chargers would be able to deal VIncent Jackson for draft picks or anything right? Wrong...GM's have stated that AJ's demands were unreasonable and other GMs stated that they could not deal with AJ.
I will probably get responses stating that Vincent Jackson signed a contract and that he must honor his end of the contract. However, Vincent Jackson outplayed his contract. He was definitely worth more than the $660,000 per year he was making. If a player does not live up to his contract, the team is allowed to cut him, but if the player outperforms his contract, he must play it out? that is not fair. The problem was Vincent Jackson's agent asked for top wide reciever money. VJ is a great WR but hes not Reggie Wayne or Andre Johnson (atleast not yet). So I understand that he doesnt deserve top WR money. However, to not even be close in negotiations, that is inexcuseable. The man deserved to get paid and to not even be close in figures means that AJ smith was not making an effort. I can blame AJ smith directly because he played hardball in the past with Philip Rivers (held out for the entire preseason his rookie year), Antonio Gates (suspended 1 game for holding out of training camp), and this year Marcus McNeill and Vincent Jackson.
AJ Smith is great at what he does, which is mine talent. So good that he was able to ride to the level of General Manager. However, there are more skills that AJ did not learn that are required for general managers. Until AJ Smith is gone, the Chargers will continue to have very talented underachieving teams. Would like to hear everyone's thoughts.
This FanPost was written by a member of the Bolts From The Blue community and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bolts From The Blue editors or SB Nation.
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Wow
You completely glossed over how MM and VJaX would have automatically won 2 more games. Because both those players are running backs and special teams contributers. Wait a minute they’re not. Anyway as much as I appreciate Norv grooming Rivers to an elite quarterback his calling is not a great head coach. As far was Cowher and Gruden are you just completely forgetting their reputations before they became champions? They were both very good coaches that couldn’t get through the post season and would never win a championship, until they did. As far as AJ, he goes than the talent stops coming in. Hello 5-11 seasons again!
"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." -The Barbarian
by traceSD on Jan 2, 2011 6:42 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I, as well as pundits nationally, have no problem
and find merit with the authors’ point of view.
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, then you will be fired with enthusiasm. Vince Lombardi
by Bolt Brother on Jan 2, 2011 7:20 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I don't blame AJ.
The players were given a tender to sign to earn millions of dollars. The players chose on their own free will not to sign. They alone are responsible for their action (or inaction). Those are the terms set forth in the CBA and totally within guidelines. It’s good business practice not to spit in the face of your boss because the salary increase wasn’t high enough for your liking.
by Lancers46 on Jan 2, 2011 7:15 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
You lost me right here:
After an unsuccessful season, most of the fans will agree that a change needs to be made at Head Coach and Norv Turner needs to be let go.
Bolts from the Blue // "It's a league game, Smokey." - Walter Sobchak
Bloody Elbow // "Mongo only pawn in game of life." - Mongo
Me too
I think Turner and AJ should both stay. Rivera will probably bolt on his own. And I think Norv should be forced to decimate his coaching staff in the Roman tradition, well all except the executions. Well maybe we should execute Steve Crosby…
Further I think the franchise needs to re-invent itself. The Chargers need to find a way to fix the structural causes for slow starts (in games and the seasons). I think the causes go beyond just the Coaches.
by Trendsearcher on Jan 3, 2011 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
The team has consistently underachieved with Norv at the helm. The team is much better than it had been in the past, but you should never be content with where you are, especially in the NFL. Teams should always look to improve.
Back to the oringal post
Where’s your evidence that most fans feel that way?
The thong is, it happened.
I didnt think I was on trial here
On this blog, most fans definitely dont agree. Whenever I am at a bar talking to Charger fans, most fans that I speak with agreed that they dont like Norv as a head coach. I remember at Qualcomm under Norv’s first year when the “Marty” chants were going. Each year Norv does just enough to keep his job and each year I hope that Norv is a good coach, and each year I am reminded that he is not.
I speak with a lot of charger fans and they feel that Norv is not a good Coach and that they would like to see a change. Sorry about the generalization, I didnt really know how to start that post. and sorry for not complying with Goofus’s California rules of evidence (haha).
Hey you should hear me at the bar...
Whenever I am at a bar talking to Charger fans, most fans that I speak with agreed that they dont like Norv as a head coach.
When I’m drunk I’d probably let the air out of all four of Norv’s tires. I’ll teach you to run on every first down… You predictable pinhead!
And then the next day I sober up and see the good along with the bad. And to me it seems like more good than bad with Norv. I hear Josh McDaneils is looking for a job should we go get him?
by Trendsearcher on Jan 6, 2011 8:34 AM PST up reply actions
I'm not trying to get ticky tack, but...
…it really appears you want us to take your post seriously. It’s more difficult to do when you state opinions as fact or state “facts” that are unsubstantiated. It reads as though you’re trying to “puff up” your opinions.
I am one who does not share your opinions regarding Norv/AJ. If you want to convince people like me that they should be fired, disguising opinions as facts isn’t the way to do it.
The thong is, it happened.
This is an assertion that isn't really supported by any facts.
The team has consistently underachieved with Norv at the helm.
Bolts from the Blue // "It's a league game, Smokey." - Walter Sobchak
Bloody Elbow // "Mongo only pawn in game of life." - Mongo
Look at the Chargers Seasons under Norv, there are your facts.
Isnt this a team with Superbowl aspirations? Didnt many media experts predict them to go to the Superbowl? Every year they are Superbowl contenders and yet they dont make a deep push into the playoffs, with the exception of Norv’s first season (2007).
Here is the record of underachievement.
2010 – missed the playoffs, when predicted by all to win the AFC West and also expected to make a push to the Superbowl.
2009 – roared into the playoffs as one of the hottest teams in the NFL, clear Superbowl favorites when the playoffs started only to lose their first playoff game to the Jets.
2008 – snuck into the playoffs at 8-8, thanks to a monumental collapse from the Denver Broncos. They beat the Colts in round 1. What happened the next week in Pittsburgh? they got smoked. This year they were also picked by many to win the Superbowl
Suspending VJ for the 3 additional games ...
on top of the league suspension was completely unnecessary. Yet this would not have guaranteed the Chargers would have won one more game…. (And they could have and SHOULD have won more game ANYway….)
I understand not wanting to give VJ the money his agents were asking for — and especially not wanting to sign him to a multi-year deal.
The Marcus McNeil situation was more befuddling, especially considering that he eventually WAS signed to a multi-year deal, even in the face of the expiring CBA…. I’m glad he was, though…. McNeil’s absence may have been more significant than VJ’s, even though it was shorter: MM’s absence really hurt in the course of the slow start: Dombrowski did pretty well, but had one horrendous game and a couple of average (or one could say “mediocre”) ones.
Anyway, the special teams play was even more significant than either VJ or MM being out…. The Seattle, KC, and Oakland losses (the 1st Oakland loss, that is) were all because of major special teams break-downs…. :(
I think Norv gets one more year to prove he can fix the slow-start thing; of course if they start slowly (AGAIN), yet still make it to the AFC Championship game (or further!), then Norval will be back the following season regardless, I would sure think.
He wasn't suspended
He was placed on the roster exempt list.
6/10/2010 - Tra Thomas signs with the Chargers
8/21/2010 - Tra Thomas retires.
That was fast.
Thanks for the clarification.
I appreciate that — from both you and Richard (from his comment just below): I think I didn’t understand that correctly previously. [Nor — not to blame my ignorance on them (although they certainly didn’t help) — did many of the bozo talk-show hosts and sports commentators around here….)]
"Suspending" Jackson for the additional three games did not cause him to miss any more games than he already would have.
If anything it likely contributed positively to the quality of play that we got out of him by forcing him to participate in three weeks of practice before playing in his six games.
Bolts from the Blue // "It's a league game, Smokey." - Walter Sobchak
Bloody Elbow // "Mongo only pawn in game of life." - Mongo
by Richard Wade on Jan 4, 2011 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
"I think Norv gets one more year to prove he can fix the slow-start thing.."
Norv will be here as long as AJ is here.
Dean Spanos said he is happy with the Chargers playing .500 ball, since it was so bad before 2004.
I drink therefore I am.
W. C. Fields
I think your right, Norv will be here as long as AJ will. That is another reason why I think AJ needs to go. Plus, yes the chargers are much improved than in the past. but in the NFL, I dont think teams should remain complacent. Teams should always look to improve.
You know AJ might not be as secure as we think...
That Spanos kid has been AJ’s under study for quite a few years now. And clearly AJ is a polarizing figure for most proven HC candidates.
I think there’s a chance (not a very big chance) That Dean asks John Spanos to move up into AJ’s seat if the Chargers could land one of these marquee HC candidates.
by Trendsearcher on Jan 4, 2011 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
I think you're wrong on a number of topics
Some of them have already been addressed. Here’s another:
I will probably get responses stating that Vincent Jackson signed a contract and that he must honor his end of the contract. However, Vincent Jackson outplayed his contract. He was definitely worth more than the $660,000 per year he was making.
The $660K he was making was not what he was offered.
If a player does not live up to his contract, the team is allowed to cut him, but if the player outperforms his contract, he must play it out? that is not fair.
Your argument that the system that the owners and players agreed to is “not fair” is kind of silly. Furthermore, pointing out that the owners have some sort of advantage because they can cut players completely ignores that players keep the guaranteed portions of their contracts even if they don’t live up to the contract.
The thong is, it happened.
Just because the president of the players association at the time, Gene Upshaw, agreed to a bad deal, doesnt mean it was a fair deal. The de facto system that is set up is that players holdout for better contracts and owners can cut the players when they dont perform. This is a minor point i was making. Lets not get into NFL labor issues when Im trying to explain my opinion why AJ Smith should be let go.
But you're arguing that VJ not playing by the rules is a reason AJ should be fired
The thong is, it happened.
No, I am arguing that AJ’s abrasive personality is a reason why he should be fired. I brought up the VJ and McNeill situations as examples of his abrasive personality. Do you not remember when Rivers was a rookie and he held out ALL of training camp, or when Gates held out during his negotiations and he was suspended for 1 game?
And now both of them have signed long term contracts and are very happy with the team and organization.
Yup, AJ’s ego sure hurt us there.
My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.
by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 5, 2011 9:00 AM PST up reply actions
You know the chargers could have gotten draft picks for Vincent Jackson, who may go elsewhere for nothing anyways. AJ’s ego and abrasive personality made him impossible for other GM’s to deal with.
Look at the long term..we lose Jackson for nothing..When the next batch of players are up for big contracts what will happen then? More holdouts, more of AJ trying to prove that his balls are bigger.
This will affect the Chargers in free agency, players watch how organizations treat their players and this will definitely hurt the Chargers’s chances to sign free agents.
Well now they can choose tag Ex Jax
Would you rather have Jackson, or a thrid round draft choice? I’d take Jackson in a heart beat.
And they are getting him for the exact price he was asking last year, sans a long term contract, sans guaranteed money. How is the situation bad for the team?
by Trendsearcher on Jan 6, 2011 8:37 AM PST up reply actions
Impossible for other GMs to deal with.
Yup, we’ve had a real hard time making trades the last few years.
My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.
by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 6, 2011 9:14 AM PST up reply actions
They can tag him
Which will allow them to trade him, keep him another season or even sign him to a longer deal.
If any of those things happen (which I believe is very likely, it’ll mean we will have not lost Jackson “for nothing”.
You see AJ as someone who’s abrasivness hurts the team. Others can argue that he’s simply a guy who won’t let agents (or other GMs) push him into a deal he doesn’t want to do. Those of us that believe he’s a guy who can’t be bullied believe he’s doing a better job of protecting the long-term viability of the franchise than a GM who continually gives in.
The thong is, it happened.
LT and Seau held out as rookies too
So I guess that was Butler and Beatherd’s fault
The thong is, it happened.
also, I said $660k was what he was making. During negotiations AJ Smith made it clear that Vjax was under contract and that he did not have to make any concessions.
There were no negotiations.
Jackson’s agents told the Chargers that he wasn’t coming in without a long term contract. The Chargers told Jackson they weren’t doing long term contracts at the moment. Thus, Jackson did not report until he absolutely had to in order to accrue a 6th year of service time.
My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.
by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 4, 2011 8:54 AM PST up reply actions
We are a very understanding fan base
Charger fans, especially on this site, are very understanding. Yes the chargers have been good the last half decade with a winning record. But the Chargers, who have Superbowl talent, have underachieved for one reason or another.
A change needs to be made. Under the current regime, the team will continue to underachieve.
do we really have super bowl talent though?
i think our talent is phenomenal, but i hear this argument all the time and i’m wondering where the proof is?
"I suggest more bike" ~KSK
drinkerswithawritingproblem.blogspot.com
Teams playing well but losing
can be attributed to coaching. Teams not being prepared to play by the start of the season: coaching. Teams not being ready to start games, or folding when faced with early adversity: coaching.
This team is like a championship thoroughbred being jockeyed by a sumo wrestler.
An ownership change
is the place to start.
If the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will!!
Robert Hunter
I'm not sure that would improve anything.
The Spanos family has its faults to be sure, but so does every owner, and they’ve done a better job than most. I’m not convinced that an ownership change would be better, or if it would just be different.
My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.
by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 5, 2011 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
Ownership change
An ownership change is the place to start.
Not only has it started, it’s just about to be completed. I bet they’ve already lined up the buyer and are just waiting for the spring meeting to announce it.
Does anybody else think that AJ will not survive the move to LA? Because I don’t think he’ll make it.
My question is how involved the Spanos clan will be. Right now they are the core team for the entire operation. I wonder if the minority owner can or would want to force them out of active management.
by Trendsearcher on Jan 5, 2011 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
I think AJ's done a good job assembling his talent
And Norv’s done a good job with it.
In the 4 years before Norv, AJ’s Chargers put together sucky, good, competitive and legendary teams. In 4 years with Norv, the Chargers have been solid, just-good-enough, excellent and competitive. That’s three consecutive playoff runs and no losing seasons.
Really, I know what more we all want, but what more can you expect?
An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 5, 2011 11:25 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Here's what I think they need
Minimal coaching changes if possible.
Replace Rivera internally if he goes: with whom, I don’t know.
Defender (CB or OLB) in the first round.
Right Tackle and OLB or ILB or trade in the second round.
ILB or OLB and BPA or trade in the third round.
Use whatever’s left to fish for a TE or QB, or to get BPA at above positions.
An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 5, 2011 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
I don't know about an internal Rivera replacement
Maybe I’m not familiar enough with the junior D coaches, but I’d be scared to go in that direction.
I generally agree with your draft strategy, but I don’t know that the best players available will match CB or OLB in the first round. There will be some potential OLBs, but nobody that stands out as a can’t-miss player. It’s going to be a tricky draft.
Pagano.
Bolts from the Blue // "It's a league game, Smokey." - Walter Sobchak
Bloody Elbow // "Mongo only pawn in game of life." - Mongo
You can't legitimately expect more
than a winning season and a playoff berth. What happens in the post-season is too random to say that anything less than a championship is a failure. But as fans, I understand that it gets frustrating to watch a team with a lot of talented players fail in the post-season time and again.
My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.
by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 5, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
Legendary?
The Bolts have never had a legendary team. You need to win the SB to get that moniker, or go 18-1 like the Pats did in 07.
That said, I think AJ has been a good GM. Not great, but good. Buster Davis and Larry English were terrible 1st round picks. You can’t call AJ a top evaluator of talent if he has a 1st round bust twice in 4 years. He’s had plenty of late-round and undrafted hits, but we really need to improve those round 1-3 picks if we’re not going to sign big free agents. That’s something you can resonable expect, I think.
If not "legendary", I'd call the...
Fouts/Winslow/Joiner/Muncie/Chandler/JJ glory years in the early 80s damn-near legendary….even though they never won a SB.
When you forever change the way the game is played, that goes a long way toward become legendary.
The thong is, it happened.
... Except that the one Super Bowl we made
was not in the Coryell era…. Nonetheless, the Chargers under Coryell did achieve near-legendary status…. And maybe even legendary, as far as the playoff win over Miami went….
You're right
I don’t stop here. This is just one of many places where I spew my worthless opinion.
If the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will!!
Robert Hunter
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