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2010 DVOA Projections and Rankings

After a long and (for some of us, anyway) entertaining summer, we're just about ready to get the football season back underway. Just like last year, I'll be breaking down the weekly DVOA rankings, courtesy of Football Outsiders, and discussing just what they mean for the Chargers and our opponents and rivals. The 2010 Football Almanac has been out for some weeks now, but because I'm a cheapskate I didn't pay for it, and I had to wait until the free version of their projections were published on their website. As of today, they are. What Chargers fans may or may not know, however, is that the Football Outsiders projection system does not like San Diego. In fact, they are projected to be in the bottom half of the league this season. Why? Well, let's take a look.

Star-divide

First of all, a brief explanation of what these numbers mean for those of you who are unfamiliar with them. If you want to read a nice, detailed explanation click here for FO's own descriptions and definitions. The quick version is that raw stats like total yards are a bad way of evaluating teams, because not all yards are equal. For example, a 5 yard gain on 4th and 4 is significantly more valuable than a 10 yard gain on 3rd and 20. Many teams rack up meaningless yards late in games because they're very far ahead and the other team has given up, or because they are so far behind the other team is playing prevent defense and running down the clock. For this reason, FO uses a stat called DVOA, which adjusts yards gained or lost for down and distance, opponent, and game situation. This gives us a much better idea of what teams are doing things well, and what teams are not. For example, the Jets may have been the #1 rushing team last year based on total yardage, but they racked up a lot of meaningless yards on the ground that didn't actually help the team. In terms of effectiveness and success running the ball, the Saints were the best, because even though they had fewer total yards than the Jets, they were more successful when they chose to run.

So now that's out of the way, let's look at the projections that FO has put out for the 2010 season. In case you missed the link above, here it is again. The long and short of it is that the FO projection system doesn't like the Chargers very much. They have San Diego ranked 19th overall in the league, with an offense ranked #9, defense #29, and special teams #30.

My first reaction upon reading that was "ouch". Kind of like a slap in the face, eh? What's worse is that the Chargers rank lower than the Chiefs, who are projected to get 9 wins and win the AFC West. Let's break it down and look at each part piece by piece and try to explain what each number means and how they got there.

OFFENSE: 9th overall, DVOA of 12.1%

At the end of last season, the Chargers were #4 in total offense, and even better in the weighted rankings which rate late season performance more heavily than early season performance. In terms of the raw numbers, the Chargers had an offensive DVOA of 22.9%, meaning that the Chargers offense on the whole produced plays that were about 23% better than average. The 2010 projections see the Chargers at 12.1%. That's a drop-off to be sure, but still a top 10 unit. Why do they see that?

A couple reasons. First, and most simply, regression towards the mean in both passing and rushing offense. The 2009 Chargers had a historically good passing offense, and it's extremely unlikely that they would be as good or better the next year, even with zero change in personnel. The same holds true for the ground attack, but in the opposite direction. The rushing offense was extremely bad, and probably would have been at least somewhat better this year without any change in personnel.

But there has been significant change in personnel, which leads to the next reason. The Chargers will be without the services of Vincent Jackson, who FO ranked as one of the top 3 receivers in all of football for two years in a row now. Losing him from the passing offense will hurt. Naanee and Floyd will help mitigate some of that, but probably not all of it. Also, the Chargers will not have Marcus McNeill, who FO rated very highly as a left tackle and whose absence undoubtedly hurts the team's projection as a passing offense. The rushing offense gained Ryan Mathews in the place of Ladainian Tomlinson, which should help us out somewhat, although it's likely the system doesn't rate Mathews as highly as we would subjectively simply because he's a rookie and has shown nothing yet. Moreover, FO places large importance on the offensive line when evaluating a rushing offense. They believe that their Adjusted Line Yards stat paints a good picture of how much an offensive line contributes to the rushing attack, and the Chargers' line ranked in the bottom half of the league in 2009.

This projection seems fairly reasonable. The Chargers should see some decline in the passing offense, which will be partially but not entirely made up for in an improved rushing offense. Obviously we hope for better--we hope improved health on the offensive line, along with a strong rookie campaign from Ryan Mathews will make the rushing offense a real strength, rather than simply "not awful." We'll also rely on Philip Rivers and some of our depth at wide receiver to continue a highly efficient passing game.

DEFENSE: 29th overall, DVOA of 15.4%

This is the projection that hurts the Chargers the most. Last season, the Chargers were ranked 23rd in defense with a 4.4% DVOA. "But wait, 15.4% is better than 4.4%!" Not when we're talking about defense. On defense, you want a negative number, because it's ranking what opposing offenses are being able to do against you. A jump from 4.4% to 15.4% is pretty big, especially without any major turnovers in personnel. The Chargers will essentially be fielding the same team that they did last year, except a year older and minus Antonio Cromartie.

It's not hard to see why they don't like the defense. It wasn't very good last year, and didn't really do a whole lot to get better. No new high draft choices, no big free agents, and no former high draft pick ready to break out (unless you count Larry English, which I guess fits the bill but he doesn't exactly look ready to break out to me). With an offense that projects to be worse, and therefore hold the ball less and score fewer points, it's not surprising that the defense is expected to be worse, even if the magnitude of the drop-off seems large.

On paper, they're probably right. The things we're counting on for improvement--improved health, better performances from players who weren't very good last year, etc--aren't quantifiable and don't have a lot of statistical evidence that could back up such a claim. We can be hopeful the defense will be better, but there isn't a lot of reason to believe they will actually be better until they go out on the field and actually play better.

SPECIAL TEAMS: 30th overall, -2.2% DVOA

A lot of the special teams score comes from the coverage and return units. Some comes from the kicking, but not a lot. As a result, a special teams unit that ranked 16th with a DVOA of 0.3% is expected to be worse. Why? Well, for starters the coverage and return units last year weren't very good, and there isn't really any reason to expect them to get better until they actually perform better on the field. Nate was excellent at field goal kicking (playoffs aside), but wasn't very good at booting the ball far in kickoffs. All these things hurt.

It seems reasonable to expect the special teams unit to, on the whole, be either the same or somewhat worse, especially without Kassim Osgood covering kicks.

ANALYSIS

So what do we take from this? Well, it's important to remember that these are projections. They aren't always right. The 2009 projections were notorious for being really, really wrong. How correct these will be remains to be seen. However, what they say about the Chargers fits what my eyes see when I watch the team. They will be more balanced on offense, but probably not as explosive. The passing offense will probably be worse than last year, while the rushing offense will probably be better. How much on both sides remains to be seen. The defense, to me, looks to be the same as last year, and if there is any significant improvement I have yet to see it. I hope it will be better, but again until they prove it to me by playing better, I have a hard time believing that will be the case.

The Chargers last year were a good team, no doubt. But they weren't a balanced team. As FO wrote last year, the entire team was essentially being dragged along by Philip Rivers, Vincent Jackson, and Antonio Gates. This year, they're minus Vincent Jackson. We all hope that void can be filled by Ryan Mathews, Malcom Floyd, and Legedu Naanee, but we have yet to see how it will actually work.

The most controversial part, in my opinion, is FO's prediction that the Chiefs will win the AFC West. They have them as 16th overall, with -0.7% in DVOA. That's not a huge difference between the -5.5% of the Chargers. Essentially, they see improvements on both sides of the ball from Kansas City, and a decline in San Diego, coupled with an easy schedule leading to 9 wins for the Chiefs. It's certainly possible. Personally, I don't see them as being good enough to get past Matt Cassell, who just is not a good quarterback, and I think the Chargers are better than they're being given credit for. It's a legitimate position though, and one Chargers fans should take into account when thinking about the upcoming Monday Night game.

As for my predictions, I think the Chargers are still a top 5 offense, primarily due to the addition of Ryan Mathews and the presence of Philip Rivers and Antonio Gates. I do think the defense is bad, but not 3rd-worst-in-the-league bad. Hopefully the season will prove me right on offense and wrong on defense.

This FanPost was written by a member of the Bolts From The Blue community and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bolts From The Blue editors or SB Nation.

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Everybody that thinks that the FBO just hates on the bolts bookmark this page. Then bring it up throught the season and see how much crap their so called advanced statistics are full of.

"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." -The Barbarian

by traceSD on Sep 8, 2010 4:35 PM PDT reply actions  

This makes no sense.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 8, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

that is too bad

Seems reasonable to me, but their DVOA seems less useful than more traditional metrics at predicting total team performance.

In their notes they concede this, but note that their method allows you to drill down. For example, if your running DVOA is 2.4%, you can break that into “splits”, and drill down (e.g. runs left, runs middle, runs right). I don’t think that granularity is available to the public, but I get why they like it. But, I think a big part of the disconnect between SD’s performance and bad DVOA numbers was that it seemed our offense seemed to score in ways that DVOA did not value. And if you look at other quant metrics, we did much better.

Anyway, your analysis is right in line with my thinking. Our passing will be worse because of VJ and McNeil and our running better.

Kind of full of disgust for Smith. All his “major” moves this year, feel, to me, like he has made the team weaker.

VJ spat
McNeil spat
Cromartie gone
Jamal gone

I don’t think this team has an endless window and it kills me that he is doing this as our core ages. Oh well.

by jayman66 on Sep 8, 2010 4:59 PM PDT reply actions  

DVOA is far better correlated with wins than raw yardage totals.

We scored in ways that DVOA found plenty valuable in 2009. The Chargers were the 4th best offense, and the best passing offense BY FAR.

In my mind, Jackson and McNeill sitting has made our team worse more than anything AJ has done. Cromartie is probably addition by subtraction. Jamal hasn’t been here since 2006.

"I'm a mighty pirate."
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 8, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

i disagree, but have not run the numbers in awhile

I believe the Chargers looked much better by methods like Saragin last year than they did with FO data; and the Charger performance seemed to bare that out

I like the DVOA methods, but their own site describes the limitations. it is better designed for detailed analysis (which you cannot do with aggregate numbers) than aggregate numbers.

I don’t think they are materially superior in aggregate to other quant methods. Maybe somewhat, but not that much.

But again, I have not looked at the data in a few years.

by jayman66 on Sep 9, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

You said traditional methods, not Sagarin.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 9, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are two sides to the “spats”. AJ didn’t just wake up one day and say, “you know what, I never liked that McNeill and Jackson, I’m going to screw with them just because I can.”

"Don’t get nervous. Norv is in charge."

creanium.net
Bolts from the Blue

by creanium on Sep 8, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, but i think the june deadline, coupled with a low-ball number hurt

I see not wanting to give them a LT deal; that is his assessment and job to do.

I can see setting a negotiating deadline

But giving the player such a lowball deal gives them little incentive to play/negotiate; it seems punitive; or, the Chargers are really cheap

The offers to McNeil and VJ <<< then their value; why not offer them slightly below market one year deals, and then let them go?

by jayman66 on Sep 9, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's pretty simple.

Neither McNeill nor Jackson were/are in the Chargers’ long term plans. They were happy too keep them around for one more year at $3.2 million, but not more than that.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 9, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

They did offer them one-year deals

Both were given ~$3.3 million tenders, which were healthy raises for both of them.

When neither player showed in interest in signing the tender, the decided to rescind the offer. The team has no obligation to reward procrastinators or players who hem and haw or show no interest in putting the team ahead of themselves.

The team took a stance and stuck to their guns. The CBA situation this year was different than every other year, but the Chargers played within the rules and within their rights. The players were still going to get paid a decent amount, but they were demanding either more money or long-term contracts, neither of which the Chargers were willing to do.

"Don’t get nervous. Norv is in charge."

creanium.net
Bolts from the Blue

by creanium on Sep 9, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I get that

But what strikes me as odd is how low the new offers were after the mid-June deadline was reached.

They are not “procrastinators” but guys in a negotiation dance trying to maximize their lifetime earnings.

So, if you are VJ or McNeill, what incentive do you have to sign the new, very low offers? If they are low enough, your opportunity cost to sit out the season is so low, I see little incentive to make a move once you have decided that the Chargers position is solid.

It seems like a staggered withdrawal, where, OK, you did not sign, fine, but each week you do not sign it will lose 3% of value or something. Or a secondary date, where they will lose 20% of value, etc.

It is as though they go through the some initial positioning, Smith just decides “Fuck ’em”, and stops negotiating all together (by only offering very low contracts as their sole, non-sit out option), and makes moves that almost guarantee they will not be with the team this year.

This position and behavior may have some benefits in future years in that agents don’t mess around with him, but it sure hurts us this year.

by jayman66 on Sep 9, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

See there was a valid reason for not paying

for Football Outsiders.

“There are lies, damnable lies, and then there is statistics” Mark Twain

A fine example of staring at details till they are hynoptized. Almost every stat can be twisted or turned in place. Losing McNeil brings down passing game, maybe on 15 plays total; but Dombro is a better run blocker is did they adjust on the other side? Cromartie is gone, but run defense certainly improved….and on it goes…which is why computers and math geeks don’t pick the game winners, hey otherwise the Padres would be in last place

by bo_shilo on Sep 8, 2010 5:47 PM PDT reply actions  

FO is better at describing what has happened than predicting what will happen.

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 8, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

They have fancy numbers

But nothing I have seen from them has convinced me that those numbers are worth anything. When you get down to it, they are trying to predict human behavior that is variable dependent upon other human behavior. You just can’t get anywhere with that, and it’s true for most stats. All they can do is make judgments based on past performance which, while the best predictor of future performance, is still abysmally inaccurate.

"Were such things here as we do speak about?
Or have we eaten on the insane root
That takes the reason prisoner?"

by aesimpleton on Sep 8, 2010 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Their numbers during the season

do a pretty good job at telling who is good at what. Far better than raw totals, anyway. And unless you watch every game and have a perfect memory, that’s probably better than a subjective eye.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 8, 2010 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with this.

I do think there’s something to FO’s stats. But between one season and the next, there are so many strange variables that they render FO’s statistics almost meaningless for season-to-season predictions, or at a minimum they ensure that FO will be frequently (and sometimes wildly) inaccurate.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think the thing worth remembering is that even when FO is way off, they’re not really any more off than anyone else.

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 9, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sure. But people take them more seriously.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's seems like a ridiculously biased statement

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

???

I know that I take FO more seriously than I take some random columnist. Not for preseason projections, but for about everything else. But yeah, sometimes a smart guy armed with the stats he thinks are important and the flexibility of just being one guy with a set of opinions is just as good a predictor of such a complex set of outcomes as a computer model that tries to account for (observable) unknowns with variables or plugged in placeholders. For instance, you and I and Walter Cherepinsky all probably agree that FODEK about Ryan Mathews.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not sold on him having a big year. I keep thinking he’s going to get hurt the way he runs.

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 9, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Richard!

It’s called faith. Work on it.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 9, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know

I shouldn’t even bother.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think he got that upgrade yet

I think that’s all part of the Sense of Humor service pack.

"Don’t get nervous. Norv is in charge."

creanium.net
Bolts from the Blue

by creanium on Sep 9, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Once I get SBNation to send my checks to the right address (only been working on that for seven months), I’ll start working on developing a sense of humor.

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 9, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

And they've earned it ... elsewhere.

Predictions are like, well, you know. We all have them. And they’re all more-or-less equally accurate, given adequate information. When Peter King tells you who he thinks will win this game or that game, he tends to be right more than he’s wrong. But that doesn’t mean you believe him.

When Barnwell and co. make their picks, there’s this tendency to say, “and oooh, there’s a science behind it.” That science is really good for explaining what’s working and why, and what makes the things that win games valuable. And when picking individual games, well into the season, it’s not bad.

But for this purpose, preseason predictions, I have no more faith in FO than I do in Peter King.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yea I would agree it might describe what just happened as opposed to what is going to happen. Overall statistics are great tool to a point, the article in the UT about Hester’s block illustrates. That block won’t show up in the stat box much anywhere, but that player executing what he is suppose to do…makes him a valuable football player just statistically unviable

by bo_shilo on Sep 8, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not too worried

Here are FO’s projected records for 2009, with the actual win total in parentheses. Overall, their predictions didn’t pan out. They predicted that Chicago, Carolina, NYG, Seattle & Pittsburgh would win their divisions, while none of those teams even made the playoffs.

Chicago Bears – 10.5 (7)
Minnesota Vikings – 8.8 (12)
Green Bay Packers – 7.4 (11)
Detroit Lions – 5.8 (2)

Carolina Panthers – 8.3 (8)
New Orleans Saints – 7.8 (13)
Tampa Bay Buccaneers – 7.2 (3)
Atlanta Falcons – 6.6 (9)

New York Giants – 10.0 (8)
Philadelphia Eagles – 9.3 (11)
Dallas Cowboys – 8.0 (11)
Washington Redskins – 7.8 (4)

Seattle Seahawks – 9.9 (5)
St. Louis Rams – 8.2 (1)
San Franciso 49ers – 5.7 (8)
Arizona Cardinals – 5.6 (10)

Pittsburgh Steelers – 9.6 (9)
Baltimore Ravens – 8.8 (9)
Cincinnati Bengals – 6.9 (10)
Cleveland Browns – 6.6 (5)

Indianapolis Colts – 11.5 (14)
Jacksonville Jaguars – 10.2 (7)
Tennessee Titans – 9.3 (8)
Houston Texans – 6.9 (9)

New England Patriots – 11.4 (10)
Miami Dolphins – 6.4 (7)
New York Jets – 6.2 (9)
Buffalo Bills – 5.3 (6)

San Diego Chargers – 12.5 (13)
Kansas City Chiefs – 6.7 (4)
Oakland Raiders – 6.0 (5)
Denver Broncos – 4.9 (8)

Super Bowl: San Diego Chargers over Chicago Bears

by murpho on Sep 8, 2010 6:58 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

They're pretty open about their 2009 predictions being terrible.

Schatz wrote about it in March. Apparently the issue was severely screwing up the defensive projections. They’re also open about their model not being perfect and needing constant adjustment and improvement. In their defense, outside 2009 their predictions have been pretty good. They were the only ones who predicted the Chargers to be good in 2004, and the Bengals good in 2009.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 8, 2010 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Honestly

Cherry-picking the accurate parts is what makes people believe in palm readers. If their model requires constant adjustment, I would think they are basically changing it based on how they are wrong each season. That’s nice in theory, but you end up with a broken system that makes excuses every time it’s wrong. If your prediction system requires constant adjustment, you aren’t predicting anything.

"Were such things here as we do speak about?
Or have we eaten on the insane root
That takes the reason prisoner?"

by aesimpleton on Sep 8, 2010 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

No projection system is perfect.

How would it help things if they refused to try to improve it? I’m not meaning to be Football Outsiders’ schill here, and I know their projections aren’t perfect, but it’s silly to dismiss things outright because you don’t like their results.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 8, 2010 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Based on last year's results, their pre-season predictions aren't worth crap

How do we know they tweaked it correctly and that this year’s predictions aren’t actually worse?

"Don’t get nervous. Norv is in charge."

creanium.net
Bolts from the Blue

by creanium on Sep 8, 2010 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

They seemed to understand the AFC West
San Diego Chargers – 12.5 (13)
Kansas City Chiefs – 6.7 (4)
Oakland Raiders – 6.0 (5)
Denver Broncos – 4.9 (8)

The Broncos got a gimme or two, the Chiefs blew a game or two.
The Raiders played to form.

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 8, 2010 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's not very convincing

In fact, it looks an awful lot like the results an informed observer would get, regardless of advanced stats. It’s not hard to guess who will be good and who won’t. It’s very difficult to predict wins and losses with any kind of significant accuracy, outside of the fact that good teams will win more games.

"Were such things here as we do speak about?
Or have we eaten on the insane root
That takes the reason prisoner?"

by aesimpleton on Sep 8, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am not promoting FO's either

But the Chargers hit on the 12.5
The Raiders hit on the 6
The Broncos won one game on a freak play ( a second on a poop call)
The Chiefs gave away a few games with Christmas ribbons on them.

That is why the NFL is fun to watch, any given Sunday

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 8, 2010 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

“Home team wins” doesn’t suck either…

by Orz on Sep 8, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not silly

If their results aren’t accurate above a statistically significant threshold, in my opinion. In any case, I don’t see any argument for the projections in the first place. I of course understand that people will try to predict things, and I can respect anyone that tries to do so with science (e.g. FO) as opposed to hocus pocus, but at a certain point we need to stop taking it seriously. If they can’t do it consistently right, why listen to them? Fancy numbers don’t impress me.

No prediction system is going to be able to make any sense of something as complex as the NFL. Some systems may get things right at a higher rate than others, but no more than a lot of avid fans could do. A person with good knowledge of every team will make slightly more accurate predictions than some guy off the street, but not by enough for me to put money on. In the end, there are just too many variables for me to take any such projections seriously, particularly those based on ‘advanced’ stats.

"Were such things here as we do speak about?
Or have we eaten on the insane root
That takes the reason prisoner?"

by aesimpleton on Sep 8, 2010 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

So the ESPN guys are good Game pickers?

Bunch of Homers and Big Market backers is what they do.
Do you really think that the Jets are that good to get all the publicity?
Da Bears
For petes sake Oakland (Whooo they got a QB, going to the playoffs now)

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 8, 2010 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you are missing the point

They use advance stats to make projections, that’s more than anyone else is doing. And because they are continually changing their equations you at least have to give them credit for trying to do something different. If you arent impressed by FOs math then I dont know what to say, except that it’s not the stats you did in high school, and it’s not an exact science. It’s just entertainment not physics.

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 8, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I get this and still agree with aesimpleton

It’s good to take a look at what each team is doing, how what’s working or not on one front or another correlates to success or failure in the current circumstances, and try to go from there to get better by focusing on the important stuff. Using this as a predictive tool is kind of weak, but if they can get to a level at or above the professional prognosticator it’s kind of a nice confirmation that their stats are working… for other purposes.

For season records, I suspect they’re less useful, because they don’t know what kinds of variables to be looking at. For instance, FO picks the Chiefs to have a much better pass rush because last year they got a lot of pressures for every actual sack. But what if they just got an abnormally high number of pressures? Or, the Chargers probably get marked down quite a lot for losing Marcus McNeill, but is that fair? What are the odds that Brandyn Dombrowski is a replacement-level lineman as opposed to better or worse? All this dilutes the ability to use stats to predict a team’s performance.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

So what's your solution for projecting performance before the season starts?

Its fine to point out flaws in the model. There are always going to be flaws. But, is that your point? That it has flaws. Everyone knows that.

Maybe your point is to ignore preseason projections (objective or subjective), but nobody is going to do that. So you might as well use some advanced calculations to improve the discussion.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

My solution is simple

Get a bunch of guesses. Get some “objective predictions” (compound educated guesses), some “subjective predictions” (compound educated guesses with less precise criteria), and consult your gut. Then, look at it all, have a good laugh, and wait for Sunday to tell you how everybody was right here and wrong there.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

This stuff reminds me of people who have “systems” for betting at craps. One prediction is worth almost as much as the next. And a few smart guys who are paying attention to what’s happening around the league, talking to people who know stuff, and making his best guesses as to what it means will do about as well as a few smart guys who plugged everything they could think of into a computer model and analyzed and tweaked that model until they were pretty sure it was right.

An even smarter guy might read both predictions, see what he figured the model didn’t account for but might be important, and make a new set of predictions on top of that. But he probably wouldn’t be significantly more accurate.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

As an outsider though

Its tough to know who out of those making subjective opinions is actually doing so because they take pride in that work or if its just a stunt for magazines/tv/blogs/etc. I’m guessing that most fall into the latter category.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think most people who make reg-season sports projections

are generally doing it in good faith, give or take a little homer/hater sentiment. Perhaps there’s a little more emphasis on picking which good team will fall off or which bad team will improve, but usually some good team falls off and some bad team improves, so it’s not a terrible thing.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah but if you wanted 100% assurance

Someone was picking with no biases, then you let a computer do it with formulas you and a bunch of other people create. You see what formulas work and you constantly upgrade them. And this is what FOs actually does, so even if you don’t think their outcomes are worth a shet you still have to give them props for their process

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 9, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

You can't get rid of biases

All you can do is enshrine them in the formula. “What’s important” isn’t set in stone; it changes as the game evolves. So even if you tweak your formula in the face of facts over and over, you’ll still have biases, no matter what you do or how many people you have doing it.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes but

The more people you have and the more updates you do, should in theory eliminate bias at least as much as it could be. You do have to give props to FOs for their methods, thats my take at least

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 10, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah. Agreed.

Still, when talking about season predictions, I think there are too many fuzzy “intangible” factors to make this all that important.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 10, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is Paul

He can make predictions. If he predicts a win, it happens.

Anyone can make predictions. But in the preseason it is just too early.

6/10/2010 - Tra Thomas signs with the Chargers
8/21/2010 - Tra Thomas retires.

That was fast.

by SD FTW on Sep 13, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

These guys slamming FO make me laugh. If you pay the 10 bucks for the book you can read that they do not avoid incorrect projections, they actually write about them. Until somebody shows me better football stats and projections than what FO is doing, I will continue to be entertained by what they do.

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 8, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not really

The variance of their wins projections routinely place towards the bottom of almost all publications that publish wins totals. In fact, so far I’m 2 for 2 in considerably outperforming their wins predictions by using the following formula: pull the predictions out of my ass while on a long-distance flight.

FO statistics are descriptive, but nearly non-predictive, or at least significantly less than just weighting basic efficiency statistics like first half YPA and YPC.

by Marver on Sep 10, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Special Teams Projection

Is a little strange, I dont remember kick coverage being horrible by any means. I thought PR was lacking but KR looked solid.

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 8, 2010 8:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Kaeding sucks at Kickoffs

only thing I can think of

"Don’t get nervous. Norv is in charge."

creanium.net
Bolts from the Blue

by creanium on Sep 8, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

He must really suck

because that ranking seems horrid compared to what my eyes see

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 8, 2010 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Our coverage units weren't great last year.

Nor were the return units. Plus Kaeding is probably being projected to regress in his FG conversion rate.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 8, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

How bad will the punt coverage unit actually need to be to reflect that though with a healthy Scifres around? Its not like they’ll have to deal with too many returns

Even if Kaeding does regress he’ll still be in the top half of the league almost certainly in FGs and while he isn’t great on kickoffs the coverage unit was still average last year so they’ll have to regress as well.

The reason I don’t like in depth stat predictions like this is because you can’t quantify stuff like guys playing hurt the year before

by ramezes on Sep 9, 2010 3:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

They purport to measure health

by using a metric that is supposed to measure how many games your starters miss, adjusted for various things. What I don’t think it measures is guys who play hurt, because it takes into account games missed, not guys who don’t miss time but play poorly because of nagging injuries.

So, for example, they would take into account Nick Hardwick being back after missing almost all of last year, but they wouldn’t take into account Stephen Cooper playing the whole year with a host of nagging injuries.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 9, 2010 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or, more importantly,

Mike Scifres.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

That was who I was getting at although we also have others

by ramezes on Sep 9, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you.

I should have just asked you what to say.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 9, 2010 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I see some hope for defensive improvement.

It’s just hope, but the seeds are very real.

1) If Merriman is ever going to make a full recovery, he’ll be back at full steam well before midseason. That alone would lead to a dramatic defensive improvement. This defense is one linebacker away from “smothering,” considering that opposing teams have to score on most drives.

2) The DL got better over the season, after they picked up Travis Johnson and Ian Scott to replace Jamal Williams. They’ve replaced the aging Scott with a promising rookie, but otherwise this resembles the DL from midseason last year, rather than the DL from before the trade deadline, which really depressed the team’s line stats.

3) There were no meaningful losses. They dropped a bum corner for a third-year first-rounder. They still don’t seem to have found a good SS, but what else is new?

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Stats suck

Play ball

If the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will!!

Robert Hunter

by Buck Melanoma on Sep 9, 2010 7:04 AM PDT reply actions  

That's the only one that counts

If the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will!!

Robert Hunter

by Buck Melanoma on Sep 10, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Got it

So no tracking of how many yards gained on each play. After each play we can spot the ball randomly on the field.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 10, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

One thing

that seems odd. At least as described, there is an amorphous regression towards the mean for the offense, but no progression towards the mean for the defense? Also does Indy really regress towards the mean every year on offense, or do they light it up as long as Manning is taking snaps?

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Sep 9, 2010 9:27 AM PDT reply actions  

The regression towards the mean for the offense

Is going to be dramatic (and not amorphous) because it was so far away from the mean to begin with. Not only that but it was so far away from the mean in a way (strong passing, bad running) that history has examples of teams coming back to earth dramatically (I think FO did an article about this at the end of the season).

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’m a little thrown by how much worse it expects the defense to be.

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 9, 2010 9:42 AM PDT reply actions  

I was saying to Zach

That I think that’s a function of the offense being worse and the defense suffering because of it. I wonder if there’s some logic that says that bad defense gets even worse if their number of plays increases by a large amount.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Shouldn’t this year’s style of offense lend itself to greater time of possession, though?

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 9, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's factored in

There’s nothing that I would think could be in their data set that would make it think that we’ll be any different than last year. Other than losing a LT, a WR and the bad starting RB and gaining a first round RB.

Obviously, we can see Mathews and assume that the running game would get better. But, something tells me there’s not “Sure Fire Improve the Running Game New RB” variable, but just a “First Round RB” variable that probably doesn’t think that much of “First Round RB”s chances.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes.

In fact, Barnwell ran a piece during the summer on ESPN.com talking about first round running backs, and how they’re far more likely to bust or get injured than be Chris Johnson. So the model probably has something like a 10% chance Mathews is a star, 40% chance he’s an average back, and a 50% chance he gets hurt and doesn’t play very much. Or something like that.

My name is Guybrush Threepwood, and I'm a mighty pirate.
"How appropriate! You fight like a cow!"
Faceless slider-tossing goofs FTW.

by Zach (maestro876) on Sep 9, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

ToP

Thing is though I’d still expect time of posession to go up. It would be expected (and we’ve seen this already in the pre-season) without Jackson and McNeill we’ll go to a quicker, shorter passing attack which should extend the time we have the ball and therefore help the defense

by ramezes on Sep 9, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would be that most teams that lose a top WR

Would end up with a less effective passing attack that can’t convert first downs as well they used to and thereby lost ToP.

Only our subjective opinions about Philip Rivers’ abilities, Norv Turner’s creativeness and the array of skilled but unproven pass catching options we have at WR would make you believe otherwise. Which is fine, but there’s no way it gets accounted for in an objective projection.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think VJ was actually a big drag on our TOP.

With VJ, we converted well, but we’d play fewer downs per drive. I think you’ll see this team doing about as good a job converting on first/second down, though with more seconds and fewer firsts, and with no real change in yards per play (I have 7.6 passing and 4.2 running) but more mid-range action yielding more downs per drive, even at the same total yardage. So I think the Chargers will pick up 20 or 30 seconds a game over last year, where they just barely won TOP despite winning a lot of blowouts.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another way to put that

Is that first down conversion only adds a little to TOP, and if you account for the lost first-down conversions with quality depth and some stabilizing improvement, like a revamped running game, then you actually gain TOP over those big-yardage plays.

Not that this is all amazingly valuable. But I do think, FWIW, that the San Diego TOP will go up considerably this year.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I never said anything to the contrary

I just said that without subjective opinions like those you can’t come to that conclusion.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think these statements are hard to defend.

“Without Vincent Jackson, and with the addition of Patrick Crayton, the Chargers still have an NFL-level WR corps.”

“The Chargers have revamped their running game.”

Any comparative statement about projections for the performance of football players in games not yet played is by nature subjective. So I’m not sure how to phrase any statement so as to defy either subjectivity or the need to make subjective inferences to apply relevance.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the conversation is trying to go in two directions

The thread started about how the projected defense was too low. And I brought up that its a factor of the offensive projection being low.

Then ToP was brought up as a counterargument to my comment about the offense affecting the defense.

I tried to refute that by saying it wasn’t part of the projection system so therefore it really couldn’t help or hurt the defensive projection (I’m still trying to stay on topic of the defensive projection being too low).

And then the conversation took a tangent about VJ and I guess I didn’t keep up. I was still trying to stick with the original theme of the thread.

So, your points are valid, but they don’t help explain the defensive projection being so low.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think this actually does play into defensive improvement.

Longer offensive drives, less wear and tear on the defense, or so the old maxim goes, no?

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

This sorta explains the Chiefs Effectiveness upgrade
Is that first down conversion only adds a little to TOP, and if you account for the lost first-down conversions with quality depth and some stabilizing improvement, like a revamped running game, then you actually gain TOP over those big-yardage plays.

Not that this is all amazingly valuable. But I do think, FWIW, that the San Diego TOP will go up considerably this year

If you can run the ball you keep the other teams ToP down.
I do like the debate on the merits

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 11, 2010 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's important by itself.

It only matters if you have a lead to protect.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 11, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes 3rd down conversion

Does correlate in a huge way, I think it correlates more than any other stat besides maybe touchdowns haha

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 9, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, I was talking about second down, really.

Last year, the Bolts faced a lot of failures and conversions on first down. Successful first-down plays that didn’t convert weren’t all that common. This season, the Chargers will face a lot of 2nd-and-(3-6).

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or so I predict.

Subjectively. Like any prediction when involving incalculable variables, no matter how much data you think you have.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

When you say

“more mid-range action yielding more downs per drive, even at the same total yardage”

what you really mean is:

“more successful mid-range action yielding more downs per drive, even at the same total yardage”

I get that is implied and perhaps obvious, but subtracting a very productive receiver and adding unproven receivers doesn’t guarantee such a thing to happen. That’s not to say it won’t, just that its only our opinions that it will.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's more than opinion.

I mean, it’s our opinions that the RB corps will improve, and that one more season starting on the OL will be good for Vasquez, or that Dombrowski is more of a run-blocker than McNeill, but we can back those opinions up with as much (worthless) inductive evidence as we like; it’s easy to find.

But I do think that it’s fairly safe to predict an improvement in the run game, if only through regression to the mean. And it’s extremely unsafe to predict a decrease in the amount of successful non-converting plays (which is probably a better way to say “successful mid-range action”) if you’re predicting an improvement in the run game with no change at QB.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

This may seem a little circular

But, FO takes regression towards the mean into account for the running game, but they also account for historical factors. Many of the previous cases of teams in similar situations most likely did not see an improvement in the running game. At least according to their measurements (I’m basically referring to their offensive line measurements which can’t separate RB from OL performance well enough).

I agree with you that there is reason for us to believe/hope for the running game to improve. However, given a certain set of assumptions (poor run blocking in previous season, only a first round RB and a loss at LT as a personnel changes and some gained experience by the other members) there really isn’t a lot to hang your hat on. Its really all about LT sucking, TDEK being awesome and Dombro run blocking as well or better than McNeill. None of those are really well known, just educated guesses. I like the educated guesses, but their are still the opinions that defy historical trends and maybe to an outsider don’t seem that reliable.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another way to summarize a lot of my opinions on the FO projections

And it applies to this current thread as well. I agree with almost all of the assumptions that FO are making. I guess the key to whole thing is that I (and perhaps you) don’t agree with the assumptions they are not making. However, I find those other assumptions to be far more (more, I suppose is the key word here) subjective than the ones they make since there’s are based on historical trends and some fairly decent empirical data that I’ve looked at and can mostly agree with.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

It is hard to find spots here :)

What I am seeing is that VJ allowed you all to score quickly on offense. I saw that. The issue is that if you have to score slower cause of the change (VJ gone) it will upgrade the ToP but also allows for miscues (penalties, stops) that negate scoring at all. I am a Mizzou Tiger fan also and when the offense clicks we score a ton, when the offense is forced to grind it out we don’t score enough.

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 11, 2010 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought ToP

Would correlate at least somewhat with good football, but in reality it doesnt. Which is why FOs doesnt use it, or tries not to use it if I remember correctly

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 9, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

FOs Almanac

Has a piece about why they dont use time of possession, I will try and read it again and paraphrase it. If I remember correctly they said it didnt correlate to wins or even “good football” that is was only a result type of play, 3rd down %, and the games progress (score).

IMO

by Foilhat on Sep 9, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, it does correlate to good football, but not in a causative way

Teams that are disproportionately successful on 3rd down and build large leads do tend to win games and TOP. Generally, teams that rule the TOP roost are the winners. But even though you can go out and deliberately alter your TOP, doing so generally doesn’t make you any better.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily true

In the case of an awful team playing a great team, the awful team should attempt to create as much variance as possible in the game. One way of doing this is by making the game drastically shorter than normal, by exhausting every second off the clock following every play.

by Marver on Sep 10, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

also agree

but the bad team is not always successful with that stategy

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 11, 2010 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

More optimism

In addition to the 2009 predictions being pretty bad, which has been widely discussed, they also projected the 2008 Steelers to be mediocre at best.

by Lenny Suckerpunch on Sep 9, 2010 10:27 AM PDT reply actions  

I feel like their are basically two types of discussions going on

One is: “This is how we are different from their model predicts.”

The other is: “Projection models are stupid and here are its flaws.”

Can’t we move past the second one yet? We can’t keep having the same discussion every year. Preseason projections are here to stay.

Am I off base here? Do people want to belabor the same points over and over? Is that more fun?

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 10:42 AM PDT reply actions  

I just love picking on FO fanatics.

And preseason predictions are the lowest-hanging fruit, because they’re the one place where FO is really, really worthless.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don’t get me wrong. I love FO. I just think that FO tries to be so precise that it looks silly when it goes after the fuzzy stuff.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sometimes

I still think their first prediction, where they saw the Chargers 2004 season before everyone else did was pretty awesome.

I know it seems like tea leaves to you, but the reasoning behind that prediction was solid and those reasons continue to hold up over time.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sure.

Not knocking FO predictions in relation to other (“subjective”) expert predictions.

I’m knocking season predictions, FO or otherwise, in relation to FO’s treatment of other matters.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

And

suggesting that there’s more of a tendency (especially by FO people) to treat whatever comes out of FO’s computers as gospel, which just isn’t helpful in this case.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

I love how you make all these assumptions about how people interpret the data

And make yourself holier than thou based on them. Kudos to you.

(Before getting mad, check for irony)

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Understood.

An autumn Sunday,
Perched in front of the big screen,
Beer in white knuckles.

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Sep 9, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Their KUBIAK projections are supremely helpful.

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 9, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

But, but...

They are sometimes wrong because they didn’t take into these 5 factors I pulled out of my ass. Throw them out.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 9, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

why

because the work is done for you, or because the work is actually statistically better than other publications you can pay for? Because I know it isn’t the latter.

by Marver on Sep 10, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’ve finished in the money every year I’ve used them.

Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Sep 10, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about this?

Okay, this is pretty nerdly, but illuminating, I think. Take the number of actual 2009 wins for each NFL team. Subtract from the 2009 DVOA prediction. You get 32 “errors”, or inaccuracies in their projection. Take the standard deviation of these 32 numbers. You get 3.0. This means, roughly, that 2/3 of the time, their error is 3 or less. Sound good? Now try this. Take the actual number of 2009 wins and subtract 8. You get 32 measures of how much each team differed from an 8-8 record. Take the standard deviation of these 32 numbers. You get 3.17. In other words, the 2009 DVOA predictions were only slightly more accurate than guessing every team would finish with a .500 record.

by QLFixBoy on Sep 10, 2010 11:32 AM PDT reply actions  

One more thing

I’m not saying that DVOA isn’t useful. It provides excellent post-mortem analysis of what we’ve observed in the past. I just think it isn’t useful as a predictive tool. I think this is because: 1) the “average” they’re predicting deviations from isn’t established in advance (by definition, it’s impossible, so they’re predicting both the averages and the deviations); and 2) basing future performance on past performance doesn’t account for changes in skill level, team chemistry, offensive and defensive philosophies, and innumerable other factors. DVOA is great for telling us whether A-Pete or CJ was a better, more valuable back last year. It is practically useless for telling us whether A-Pete or CJ will be a better, more valuable back in 2010.

Are Marlon McCree and Antonio Cromartie the same person? Just askin'.

by QLFixBoy on Sep 10, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

But that only takes into account the weighted mean projection

In the book they actually offer the range of projections. Does the same analysis hold up against those?

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 10, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also

I think if you understand the methodology then the projections are still a good starting point for discussions on the season. If you just projected everyone at 8-8 it adds nothing to the discussion. By projecting out their records based on the same sets of criteria for each team you can form a discussion of why the projection might vary from where it is.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

True, but...

Adding to the discussion is great, and provides much grist for the mill (as this thread abundantly shows). However, for 2009 the deltas between their projections and the actual results were no more accurate than just guessing every team is average. Discussing why that happened is very interesting, I’ll grant you. I’m just not convinced (through several years of watching their predictions) that they have much success predicting. And like I said, they are very adept at showing us why Willie Parker isn’t all that and a bag of chips.

But now I must caveat all that with this: No, I’m way too cheap to buy their book, so I haven’t performed the same analysis against their predicted ranges. It is possible they fare better in this regard.

Are Marlon McCree and Antonio Cromartie the same person? Just askin'.

by QLFixBoy on Sep 10, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Love the "Don't Panic" avatar, BTW

Are Marlon McCree and Antonio Cromartie the same person? Just askin'.

by QLFixBoy on Sep 10, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

It used to be rightside up

But apparently on Gaslamp Ball avatars had to be changed in order to prevent a losing streak.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 10, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was thinking about it.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. Please don't go trying to prove me wrong about that.

Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't

by Wonko on Sep 10, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rally Avatars??

I ain’t superstitious, but a black cat crossed my trail…

Are Marlon McCree and Antonio Cromartie the same person? Just askin'.

by QLFixBoy on Sep 10, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

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