How close does Philip Rivers push Peyton Manning for MVP?
So, Peyton Manning is the clear MVP right? I'm not so sure it's as obvious as most people think and I wonder how the closing argument is really all that valid. That is to say, I believe the "value" part of MVP analysis is a little distorted from what it should really mean.
Please note: The entire purpose of this article is to debunk the idea that Peyton Manning is the runaway winner for MVP and that Philip Rivers more than challenges him for the honour. This is why other candidates won't be mentioned. Also, I know John has posted a somewhat similar story and we've talked about it a bunch, but it's something I wanted to post at other places too (which is also why it may seem parts of it aren't aimed at Charger fans).
What is the MVP?
Most Valuable Player has a somewhat subjective definition. A lot of people tend to judge it by an individual player's worth to their team, but this is an unbalanced measuring stick when you try comparing different players to others on different teams. Just because one player is more valuable to one team than another is to theirs, it doesn't necessarily mean they're playing to a higher standard. I think it's abundantly clear that once you start making semi-legitimate cases for Vince Young using this philosophy, it's rather flawed.
What is generally objective of crowning an MVP? It's pretty much the player of the year right? I rarely hear the term "valuable" being used as a way to describe a players value and contribution to the league as it's most outstanding player. A $200 watch may be worth more to someone flat out broke than a millionaire's $5000 watch, but it hardly makes it more valuable. Value to their team should definitely come in to it as a contributing factor, but when you use it as the only way to make a judgement you begin making an argument that I just find utterly ludicrous, yet so few others do.
Can you hold having a good backup against a contender for the award? Billy Volek may be one of the better backups in the league but should that take away from the merits of Philip Rivers? How far does this theory go? Could Rivers be on an absolute dynasty, with an amazing backup, play out of this world good, yet not win MVP because the Colts imploded when Manning and the entire offense got yanked.
Personally, I'd rather give the award to the best player, not the guy who's team would crumble the most without him.
Has Rivers played well enough to earn MVP?
Anyway you slice it, Rivers has had an incredible season. A strong accurate arm with a beautiful deep ball. Poise and presence in the pocket. A leader on and off the field. He's playing his best football of his career, and given his upward trend over the last couple of seasons and his burning desire for self-improvement, it's scary to think how good he'll continue to be. He's been playing as well as any other quarterback in the league.
Last season, Manning won MVP for leading a team out of a 3-4 record, to finish on a huge win-streak, playing fantastically in the process. Change the record to 2-3 and you have a similar situation with Rivers. Both lines were in turmoil, the bolts were lacking in focus and it took a while to dig out of the hole. Even in losses to Pittsburgh and Baltimore, Rivers put the team on his back and nearly pulled out the wins. Since then he's been clutch as they've come. He led the team on late, 4th quarter drives to win games against Raiders, Giants and Bengals. He looked supreme in games won by large margins (including those that appeared closer than they were thanks to garbage scores). A big part of the turnaround was Norv Turner (anyone who thinks the Chargers are streaking like this in spite of Norv are plain wrong), but a massive part was Rivers.
Rivers has some excellent targets that create mismatches for opposing defenses, but he makes use of them like few others can. He likely throws more high-risk balls than anyone else in the league, yet posted single digit receptions (a few of which came on tipped balls that should probably have been caught) and a 65.2% completion rate. In the offense San Diego runs, that's just plain ridiculous. Any criticisms Rivers has had (e.g. not being a winner, being a poor leader of the offense and generally being a stat whore) he's surely answered and then some.
Rivers vs. Manning: A comparison.
Manning does have Rivers beat in some key stats, namely yards, touchdowns and completion percentage. However, Manning also threw many more passes than Rivers, who has a Yards per Attempt of 8.8 compared to Manning's 7.9. That's almost a full yard. Think about just how good Peyton has been and then try to imagine this gulf in Y/A. Manning's higher completion could easily be explained as being a result of throwing shorter, easier to complete passes.
Rivers has Manning beat in other stats, too. He has less interceptions (9 to 16), a higher QB Rating, a better TD:INT ration, many more 40+ yard plays and a higher amount of 1st downs thrown per pass (a league leading 42.8%). That last stat is huge in my opinion.
Over the last half of the season I think Rivers has been the better QB. Manning had a stretch of 9 interceptions in 5 games, the same amount of picks Rivers had over the entire season. He also posted only two 100+ QB Ratings in his last 8 games (not including the final two, where he got pulled early – not that it stopped Rivers from putting up a 101.8 rating against the Redskins). Rivers had 5 out of 8 in this respect. In this stretch he also had a massive four games over 130. Manning threw interceptions in 11 out of 16 games, with 4 multi-pick games. Rivers threw interceptions in 6 out of 16 games, with 3 multi-pick games (with no 3+ pick games, compared to Manning's 1).
I'll now be bringing up a stat called DVOA. For those unfamiliar with it, this is a short explanation:
Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. DVOA breaks down every single play of the NFL season to see how much success offensive players achieved in each specific situation compared to the league average in that situation, adjusted for the strength of the opponent.
In DVOA, Rivers leads Manning (and indeed, the rest of the league) 46.1% to 38.1%. Manning is good for only 5th in the league.
In DYAR (a similar stat, which measures a player's cumulative DVOA in it's simplest terms), Manning edges out Rivers 1,932 to 1,919. An extremely slim lead that can be explained by Manning's higher amount of attempts.
Chargers offense vs. Colts offense
Many people are saying Manning as a relatively poor supporting cast. I don't agree. I actually think it's a reasonably close comparison. Manning and Rivers are both the focal point of the offense. They each have a legitimate WR1 (Wayne/Jackson), an elite TE (Clark/Gates), an up and coming big play WR2 (Garcon/Floyd) and a talented, young WR3 who still contributes effectively (Collie/Naanee).
Both teams have had injuries on the O-line. I can't comment too accurately on the Colts line, although I know their starting LT has been hurt. I don't know if it could compare to the issues the Chargers line has been dealing with. In preseason they had a rookie RG (Louis Vasquez) who won his position battle basically by default. In the first game, he went down, as well as starting Center, Nick Hardwick, the lynch pin of the line. Vasquez missed only a couple of games, but Hardwick was out until just a couple of weeks prior to the end of the regular season. Their replacements? At Center, Scott Murczkowski (a converted Guard). At RG, Brandyn Dombrowski (not even converted, a Tackle playing out of position – and a natural LT at that). It took the line several games to gel and had another set back when starting RT, Jeromey Clary was placed on IR with a season-ending leg injury.
The Colts running game is no hot stuff, with the Chargers averaging a slightly worse 3.3 yards per carry. It just about does the job in terms of maintaining any semblance of balance by not allowing the defense to completely sell out against the pass. For both teams, the run game (barely) keeps the offense ticking, but it's the aerial attack that wins games.
Conclusion
I don't believe it's cut and dry at all. A thoroughly legitimate argument can be made for Philip Rivers to not only be Peyton Manning's runner up, but ahead of him as the 2009 NFL MVP. They have both led their team's under sizeable burdens and played as well as, if not better, than anyone else. Peyton gets added credit for being a "coach on the field", but Rivers beats him in efficiency, looks after the ball better and has done it in more tumultuous circumstances (Manning has a new Head Coach but he was slowly transitioned in and it's still pretty much the same organisation). A runaway win for Manning, it should not be.
This FanPost was written by a member of the Bolts From The Blue community and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bolts From The Blue editors or SB Nation.
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I made my case (in 100 words or less) at Shutdown Corner
Philip Rivers should be the NFL’s MVP. Not simply for how good he’s been (which is to say, every bit as good as Peyton Manning(notes) or Drew Brees(notes)), but for how bad the team and the circumstances around him have been by comparison to other MVP candidates. Here are the numbers: 3rd in QB Rating (1st in AFC), 1st in Yards/Attempt, 3-to-1 TD/INT ratio and he’s been sacked only 5 times in the last 7 games of the season. Also, 42.8% of his throws go for first down (1st in the league). Here are the circumstances: A patchwork offensive line (3/5 of the starters are new in 2009), no running game (lowest YPC in the league) and a team that started the season 2-3. No other MVP candidate has dealt with as much turmoil, or had as little support from the rest of the team, as Rivers..
I made a similar case during a podcast with 619sports on Wednesday. Do I think Philip should’ve been the clear-cut winner? No. But I don’t think Peyton should’ve been either unless he led his team to a 16-0 record.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
Well, Phil could still possibly win it
because it doesn’t get announced until tomorrow. But it will most likely be Manning. And Rivers will probably be 4th or 5th in the voting behind Manning, Brees, Favre, and Johnson.
"I aim to misbehave." - Mal Reynolds
by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 8, 2010 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
All I have to say is
Peyton Manning knows a lot about HDTVs, but can he even play football? Who knows?
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? ◔ヮ◔
Uncommon Sportsman :: Absurdity in play
Last Year in 2008
Rivers had much better stats than Manning, but Manning still won the award. They also bypassed Bree’s due to the 8-8 records. Brees or Rivers should have won the award if you’re looking at “best player”.
Which goes to my second point regarding Brett Favre. If you’re not looking at “best player” and just looking at how valuable a guy is to his team, then I don’t see how Favre is in the conversation at all. Last year, a Tavaris Jackson led Minnesota team won the division at 10-6. This year Favre comes in and leads them to 12-4, a whopping 2 game differential. Their O-line, and Defense, and Running game are outstanding. Yes Farvre did bring the new passing dimension, but Minnesota likely would still be in the playoffs without Favre.
I think the "Minnesota likely would still be in the playoffs without Favre"
Was a trendy thing to say earlier in the year when people assumed that Minnesota could ride their defense and AP to the playoffs like last year. But, if you look at the numbers, both of those components regressed, so without Favre I’m guess they are 8-8 at best.
I’m not saying I’m in favor of Favre winning, just that the line of thinking used there doesn’t seem to work anymore. I’ll also add that I think the fall of the undefeated season by Indy helps Favre more than it helps Rivers.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
I have to disagree with you there
Firstly of course their running game regressed, they ran the ball way less.
2008 MIN Rushing VS 2009 MIN Rushing
2008: 519 carries, 2338 yards, 4.5 avg, 15 TD, (145.8 yards per game)
2009: 470 carries, 1918 yards, 4.1 avg, 19 TD, (119.9 yards per game)
2008 MIN Defense VS 2009 MIN Defense
2008: 20.8 points per game, 292.4 yards per game, 4th in DVOA
2009: 19.5 points per game, 305.5 yards per game, 15th in DVOA.
So yes you are right in that their Rushing attack, and Defense regressed, but I argue that their rushing attack regressed due to their passing attack. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. I must say if their passing game wasn’t as efficient/successful then they would be running the ball more.
As far as Defense goes, I would argue that they didn’t have to be as good as in 2008. They dominated more games, protected leads (as in giving up more yards in prevent). And knowing they didn’t have to be as dominating because their offense could carry them if necessary.
Of course they are a more dangerous and complete team with Favre, but as far as him being a Manning, where you take him away and Indy becomes a 4-12 team, that just wouldn’t happen.
You're right about the rushing
I just assumed that it was actually good in 2008, but I guess it wasn’t good at all. In fact, it actually improved slightly by DVOA.
I think you’re argument about the defense just works to cover your own rear. There’s no way to show that the defense couldn’t keep up its 2008 performance because of the 2009 offense. And their injury issues on defense that weren’t present in 2008 would seem to fly in the face of that as well. And, on top of that, its not like its unheard of for a great defense to pair with a great offense. They are not mutually exclusive. The inept offense kept the defense on the field more in 2008, I would argue that is harder than trying to protect a lead, especially given their great pass rush in 2008. It regressed because they were injured and older, not because the passing game was better.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Rushing
DVOA says the rushing game stayed the same at #23 from 08-09, but just look at the team rushing stats. In 2008 teams knew MIN was running the ball, but overall that running attack carried their team. In 2009 there was a better mix, and they relied more on the pass when the run wasn’t working, instead of being stubborn like Martyball, but I don’t necessarily agree that the rushing attack was stagnant. Anyone will tell you that 08 MIN was a better running team.
by SJO on Jan 8, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
Same rank. Better actual DVOA in ’08.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
Oh geez
I was mixing up my negative numbers. -2.2% in 2008 and -3.8% in 2009. So the rushing game did get worse.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Oh
And I think we are both underestimating the impact of ST. From last in the league to 3rd in the league. That can make a big difference. So, maybe that improvement would have made up for the defense and given them a better record than my 8-8 supposition suggested. So maybe they were a playoff team without Favre, but it’s not because the team stayed the same except for him. Percy Harvin and the kick coverage teams deserve a lot of credit.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Good point.
Also I’m only trying to compare how the exact same 2008 team would perform, with the change in QB only. Unfortunately that type of comparison is impossible.
by SJO on Jan 8, 2010 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
In my opinion
Philip Rivers needs to win the SuperBowl before he starts winning accolades like the MVP,it’s the sad truth.Manning not only has that but he has a very marketable last name and pedigree and that adds to his lore.He’s in most casual football fans mouths cuz he’s all over the place,no pun intended.

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