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Around SBN: The Worst Team Ever Projected?

What the Playoffs Mean to Philip Rivers

This is not about what Philip Rivers has done in the playoffs up until this point.  Although, a winning record (3-2) and a game played with a torn ACL is very impressive.  A QB rating above 92 in 3 out of those 5 games is also pretty remarkable.  However, what this post is about is what Philip Rivers might be doing in these 2009-2010 playoffs.  He might be making "the leap".

I know what you're saying....with two consecutive regular seasons with a QB rating above 104, Rivers has already made the leap!  Well, yes and no.  Talent-wise, he's made the leap and belongs in the conversation with Peyton Manning and Tom Brady as some of the best Quarterbacks to ever play the game.  However, San Diego is not New York City.  If you want the world to know you, and you want to be in that conversation as a QB that's so good even non-football-watchers know who you are and how good you are, you need to bring your best to the big stage.

Star-divide

History

Unfortunately, Philip Rivers' playoff history says that he's inconsistent.  In consecutive seasons, in playoff games against a very similar Colts team, he posted QB ratings of 133.2 and 61.9.  He had a great game, with a rating of 105.4, against the Steelers in last year's playoff and that ended up being a loss.  However, in terms of consistency 2009 has been Rivers' best season.  He's yet to have a game where his QB rating ended up being less than 84.

Leadership

The more I think of it, the more I think Philip Rivers should've had a chance against Peyton Manning for the MVP Award.  Look at the stats.  Behind a worse offensive line, Rivers put up a better QB rating, a heck of a lot more 40+ yards passing plays, a better TD/INT ratio and more of his passes (42.8%) went for first down.  All of that was also done without any real running game to support him.

The stats don't lie.  Philip had a better year than Peyton, and did it with a worse team/situation around him.  Going deeper into the situation, you have to go back to Week 6 and remember how close Norv was to losing this locker room and having the team turn on him.  He deserves a ton of credit for turning it around, but the main formula for that turnaround has been to let Philip lose and then watch as Rivers gives all the credit to Turner after-the-fact.  Not only was Philip a leader in the locker room, his leadership as the biggest part of the organization (and throwing his weight behind Norv) was a huge reason this team believed in their coach.

Awards/Perception

So why is Rivers seen as the obvious choice behind Peyton?  Because Peyton would've led the Colts to a 16-0 record?  Prove it.  Because the Colts fell apart when the starters were pulled?  Peyton wasn't exactly the only guy pulled, and why should Philip be punished because the Chargers have better depth than the Colts?

It's my belief that Philip not even getting considered for the MVP (a distant second doesn't count as consideration), and Norv probably not winning the Coach of the Year, has everything to do with perception.  Everyone looks at that 2-3 start and say to themselves "That's why Norv is a bad coach" or even "That wouldn't happen with Peyton Manning."  They're wrong.

Last season Peyton got the MVP because he wasn't just the best QB (it was Rivers then too), but because he took a team that was 3-4 and became the leader of the organization as he willed them to win the next 9 games to make the playoffs.  If you remember how much fawning there was for Manning for doing that, you're also a little surprised that Rivers....and I know he's been given some credit.....isn't getting nearly as much.  Peyton was the unquestionable MVP for turning his team around, but this season it seems he's the unquestionable MVP because he played a great season and is the most recognizable face in the league.

Power of Playoffs

The power of the playoffs is that the whole world is watching.  That used to be true on Sunday and Monday Night Football games, but with the DirecTV Sunday Ticket package you no longer have to watch those games to get a bead on how good the other teams around the league are.  That's a big reason why their ratings are down.  Now, the only time that you can guarantee that every living, breathing NFL fan is watching your game is by playing in (and getting deep in) the playoffs.

The reason everybody now knows who Darren Sproles is is simple.  In probably the most watched non-Super Bowl game of the postseason, he was the best and most valuable player on the field (that wasn't a punter).  Philip Rivers' two best postseason games were against the Colts in 2008 (when his thunder was stolen by an injury and Billy Volek) and against the Steelers in 2009 (when the lack of defense and running game lost the game and made it meaningless)  Now, those games convinced a few people that Rivers was one of the best QBs in the league, but not everyone was convinced and not everybody remembers without a defining moment or victory.

 

Conclusion

This is Philip's big chance.  Being the obvious 2nd choice for MVP has it benefits, and one of them is that people start to say "Maybe he does belong in the conversation with Manning and Brady after all."  The maybe is the key.  People are watching, because they're going to want to know who is the next great QB that could possibly lead the next great dynasty.  One statement game, or defining moment (like the game-winning drives against the Cowboys and Giants this season), in the playoffs could be all it takes to turn that "maybe" into a "definitely".  And once he's in the conversation, then the debate can become "Is he better than Brady and Manning?"  However, without a statement game or defining moment he'll continue to be on the outside looking in....and in the process miss out on the awards and accolades that I think he deserves.

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I hate to do this

But there is no mention of Brees in this article. You can’t talk about the best quarterbacks and not mention Brees. He’s already in the conversation with Brady and Manning. If Rivers wants in, he’s the 4th to come to the table. And he’ll still have to fend off the schmucks that think Big Ben belongs there more.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 12:06 PM PST reply actions  

I think Brees is in the same situation. He has to prove that he can get it done in the playoffs.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Jan 6, 2010 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Nope

People already put him up there without it. I think because the Saints were so terrible before he got there.

If a QB needs the playoffs to prove he’s a great QB. Then he really isn’t a very great QB.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions  

So Rivers gets put below Brees simply because he came into a better situation?

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Jan 6, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions  

And did about the same. Four years, 40-odd wins, a championship appearance.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 6, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions  

It should be noted that Rivers is 3-2 in the playoffs and Brees is 1-2.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Jan 6, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

You just contradicted yourself

Because now you’re saying that Rivers gets extra credit for coming into a better situation.

Keep in mind that their teams both went 8-8 in 2008 (and the Saints beat the Chargers) and the Chargers got a home postseason game and the Saints weren’t in the playoffs. This is why making arguments about playoff performance for individual players becomes a difficult proposition.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

All I said was “it should be noted”.

I think Rivers and Brees are about equal, and both are in systems that fit their skillset perfectly. I just don’t know that anybody looks at Brees the same way they do Manning and Brady because (like Rivers) he’s never won a championship or even had a defining playoff moment/game.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Jan 6, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

And I'm saying

That from what I’ve been reading and hearing this year, Brees is up there with Brady and Manning in those conversations whereas Rivers is not.

And I agree that pretty much all 4 are at the same level with Schaub and Rodgers making their cases to be the next ones in (of course we probably could have said the same for Cutler and Ryan last year).

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Rivers has had a defining playoff moment.

But who needs knee ligaments?

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 6, 2010 12:51 PM PST up reply actions  

And it came in a loss

A loss in which their main problem was a failure to get in the end zone. Which doesn’t help him.

And when he left the previous game the main image of him left on the world was him jawing with fans at the RCA Dome.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I think all those QBs are great

I’m just trying to explain what the talking heads are thinking. Basically, I’m just guessing.

I think the run at the passing record helped Brees a lot since only the most elite QBs get close to that.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd rec it for this comment alone
Peyton wasn’t exactly the only guy pulled, and why should Philip be punished because the Chargers have better depth than the Colts?

I’ve been saying this to some people for the last couple of weeks.

A great post all round though

by gman87 on Jan 6, 2010 12:06 PM PST reply actions  

I'll go a different route

How can Manning win the MVP if he spent a bunch of time in the last two games on the bench. You aren’t very valuable if you can’t get on the field.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

LMAO.

Agree with the sentiment, though.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 6, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

It's a shame

that having a crappy supporting cast is a component of the MVP.

Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? ◔ヮ◔
Uncommon Sportsman :: Absurdity in play

by Axion on Jan 6, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions  

In the year of the QB, maybe.

There are like 10 guys having top-3 seasons this year.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 6, 2010 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

By DVOA

6 QBs entered the top 15 QB seasons of the last 17 years (the era in which there is play by play data). Brady, Manning, Rivers, Brees, Favre and Schaub in that order are now in the top 15 for their 2009 seasons. No other year has more than 2 (2004 – Manning/Culpepper, 2007 – Brady/Manning, 2008 – Brees/Manning).

Definitely the year of the QB.

It also appears to be the era of the 6’3 (or taller) WR. Every one of those QBs with the exception of Manning has a WR taller than 6’3 (Schaub and Rivers have 2).

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Is this really just the "year" of the QB?

From what my low football IQ has gathered, the NFL seems to be making it the QB era. It used to just be the Tom Brady era but they had to change it eventually.

Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? ◔ヮ◔
Uncommon Sportsman :: Absurdity in play

by Axion on Jan 6, 2010 4:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, but this year represents a high point for overall play in the top tier.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 6, 2010 4:13 PM PST up reply actions  

It is a QB era

and it does also seem to be the high point. All 15 of those QB seasons mentioned have occurred since the turn of the century. No QB season from 1993-1999 compares with the kind of productions QBs have put up over the last 10 years.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 4:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Well do you think it's going to regress

or is this just a stepping stone towards 10,000 yd seasons? And if it does regress, will it be because these awesome QBs retire and aren’t replaced with QBs as talented as they are or something else?

You probably won’t see this now… damn articles move too fast.

Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? ◔ヮ◔
Uncommon Sportsman :: Absurdity in play

by Axion on Jan 7, 2010 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I think there is a whole set of events that have collaborated here

First, I don’t think we’ll ever see a Peyton Manning again. He is a different kind of quarterback than anyone else.
Second, there are some contributing semi-random factors that happen to get the current set of QBs where they are. Brady was already a great QB, and then they got Moss, which is just crazy. I don’t know if Brees ever gets a fair shot in the NFL if he didn’t come up with LT and then, just when he was close to getting canned he got Antonio Gates too. I don’t think a situation for a QB could be any more perfect than what Rivers fell into. Unless you count what Favre fell into for his 40th birthday present. This is Schaub’s first healthy season in a while.
Third, the physical and mental capabilities are just better now then they ever have been. Nutrition, strength and conditioning, video technology and medical capabilities all play a factor. Rivers, Brady, Manning, Brees, Schaub and Favre have all had major surgeries that had they played in a different time would have crippled, if not ended their careers. The athletes that these QBs get to play with these days from the giant, athletic offensive lineman to this new breed of really tall speedy WRs with good hands all contribute to big offensive numbers. Go back and look at the top WRs from as recent as the early 1990s, I think Herman Moore was the only guy 6’3 or taller and, as I stated earlier, now some QBs have two not to mention the TEs.
Fourth, rules, rules, rules. I think we all know that in 2004 the rules were adjusted to start helping QBs pass for more yards. This has also led to less and less carries for RBs as OCs figure out how to expand the passing game to no longer need to run as much. The number of carries for the top RBs this year in the NFL has been diminishing steadily. It was less than a decade ago that RBs were carrying the ball much more than they do now.

So, obviously, #1 won’t last forever. #2 is more of a theory that we got lucky with some of our current batch, but as long as scouting the next generation of QBs continues to improve (and I think it is improving) then maybe we’ll get lucky again (or maybe it won’t be luck). #3 isn’t going anywhere and it’s only going to get better. And #4 could change at the drop of a hat if the rules committees decide to change things, but I doubt they will. I think the high totals are here to stay, but I don’t know if a year like this year will come along again for a while.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 8, 2010 2:32 AM PST up reply actions  

On point #3

You can apply the same “conditioning, strength, training” as well as “size” to the defense too. Bigger/faster defensive lineman, taller/faster DBs to offset the offensive skill positions.

by SJO on Jan 8, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

You can, but

Offense is the glory positions and the highest paid. I also think there is a certain tipping point for WRs and 6’3 seems to be it. This limits your CBs from being bigger and faster can only go so far. The 6’3 WRs just have so much height and leaping advantage that the CBs can’t compete. And being able to put the ball up quickly for those guys to catch without defense limits how much exposure the QB has to those big fast defensive lineman. I could be wrong, but that’s how the theory goes.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 8, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

spot on

great post! I think Rivers is right there with Manning, Brees and Brady(Maybe even better than Brady). Didnt he come back from the same surgery as Brady and have a better season??

by NorthCountyBolt on Jan 6, 2010 12:07 PM PST reply actions  

He did

Although nobody will ever mention this besides a Chargers fan.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Jan 6, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing.

Rivers didn’t even miss a season, yet Brady gets Comeback Player of the Year.

"I aim to misbehave." - Mal Reynolds

by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 6, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I do not believe

that Rivers and Brady had the “same” injury or surgery on their respective knees. If I remember correctly (and I may not) I think Brady had a torn ACL and a torn MCL.

Somewhat unrelated, but even knee injuries that sound can be very different.

by JeromeB on Jan 6, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Rivers

Had a completely torn ACL and a partially torn MCL. That sounds the same.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

I would guess

and it would be a guess, that the surgeries were very different. A partially torn MCL and a torn MCL can be very different surgeries and recovery times. In fact sometimes when a MCL is partially torn Doctors will wait and let the partial tear to the MCL heal before they perform the ACL surgery. Again almost no two knee injuries are exactly the same.

When the injuries occured also accounted for the amount of time that was missed by each player. Brady was injured in week one, Rivers was injured at the end of the season.

I am not anti Rivers, I think he is playing every bit as good as any QB in the NFL, I am just doubting that they had the exact same surgeries on their knee.

by JeromeB on Jan 6, 2010 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Also

In the link that you posted it looked like it read that Rivers had a sprained MCL rather then a partially torn MCL. Unless I didn’t read it properly, which is possible.

by JeromeB on Jan 6, 2010 2:24 PM PST up reply actions  

A sprain is a partial tear

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

yup

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 4:41 PM PST up reply actions  

always

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 4:41 PM PST up reply actions  

stretching is tearing

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

It seems odd to me

that every medical dictionary seems to feel the need to draw a distinction between a stretch and a tear, but if you insist that they are identical, you should probably take the time to let them know. ;)

by Chilango on Jan 6, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm just repeating what medical professionals say

I’m not actually doing any opinion making here.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 5:15 PM PST up reply actions  

And I think it was explained to me this way

The distinction is made in the definition because in the imaging the tear with often appear as stretching, so therefore you would then call the stretching is seen as a sprain. However, at a molecular level, the ligament has tears in it that resulted in the stretching that was seen on the image. Does that work?

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Your description here is good

as a mild MCL sprain is in fact a tear at the microscopic level. In practical terms however a “sprained” MCL is far less serious than a torn MCL. I am by no means an expert but sadly I have had plenty of experience at the wrong end of sports related knee surgeries (torn acl, torn mcl, torn medial meniscus, and three scopes).

My original point that I don’t believe their injuries, surgeries, rehab or recovery time were exactly the same I think is still a valid one. While I do not know the exact details and specifics of either players surgery, I would be very surprised to learn that Brady’s was not a more serious knee injury.

by JeromeB on Jan 6, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Not as well as

“I stand corrected,” but it’ll have to do….

Even in your definition, it still seems like a pretty significant distinction.

by Chilango on Jan 6, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Was just telling this to my friend

It’s kind of bullcrap really.

Tom Brady gets awards for coming back from a knee injury and having a pretty inconsistent season, where he was lucky to get a Pro Bowl nod in my opinion.

Philip Rivers shreds his knee, plays a week later in an AFC Championship, comes back next year stronger than ever, having a career year (at the time) where he leads the league in TDs and QB Rating.

Rivers gets snubbed from the Pro Bowl.

by gman87 on Jan 6, 2010 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

When it comes down to it

I would choose Rivers over every other QB in the League

by NorthCountyBolt on Jan 6, 2010 12:26 PM PST reply actions  

If they were the same age I’d take Peyton or Brady over him. Seeing as how he’s younger, I’ll take Philip.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Jan 6, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Under that "younger" rule..

..some people would take Matt Ryan no. 1

by DanTails on Jan 6, 2010 4:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Rivers is considerably better than Matt Ryan, though.

Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
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by Richard Wade on Jan 6, 2010 4:04 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

More risk with Ryan

Since he doesn’t have a track record and you’ll have to wade through his learning years since QBs generally don’t begin to peak until their mid 20s.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

that and...

people, especially the east coast media love to hate him. As a Charger fan, trying to defend what’s shown on TV sucks.

rant over

by Schwing on Jan 6, 2010 12:27 PM PST reply actions  

Can we really blame the "East coast media" here?

Almost every football game is played at a time when any east coast fan can easily follow the game. It’s not baseball where a east coaster has to stay up until 1 am to watch a game played in California. A typical west coast football game ends at 4:15-4:30 pm eastern. Not exactly past anyone’s bedtime.

One of the major outlets for NFL football is Fox. Fox is based in LA.

The Chargers get picked a lot recently as a preseason favorite to win it all.

The Chargers have had a decent slate of primetime games over the last few years and even 2 national CBS broadcasts.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions  

generally speaking (until that past couple of weeks)

The major stories are the Giants, Pats, Cowboys, etc. Please tell me you do not agree. SD fans are labeled “fair weather fans” which can be true to a small degree, but what team doens’t have fair weather fans? You see writers like Priscoe, etc, constantly rip the Chargers apart. When we lose, it’s how the other team folded, not how dominant we were. Prime example was when we beat the Giants and Cowboys.

This isn’t a recent observation. We as fans are probably sick of seeing it on a yearly basis. Again, I’m just ranting on a board of fellow fans. I guess I do not exactly agree with why fans in other towns hate us so much?

On another note, it’s great to see Norv get some positive press.

(now the rant is over)

by Schwing on Jan 6, 2010 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Check your times...

I think most West Coast games START at 1:15pm pacific, meaning an east coast starting time of 4:15 pm…..the west coast games END at about 7pm…I think you meant start instead of end in your post.
Your point is valid though….football starts are nothing like the baseball or basketball games that end after midnight for the eastcoasters.

Do or do not. There is no try.

by Clip Show on Jan 6, 2010 4:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Right

That’s what I meant to say, they shouldn’t be in bed by 7:30.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions  

But

you also have Sunday/Monday night games that end at 11:30pm-12am.

by SJO on Jan 7, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Aren't those supposed to be the nationally televised games that everyone follows?

Those games end at the same time whether its east coast or west coast teams in them. So I’m not sure how those would adversely affect the Chargers. Are non-east coast teams more likely to be in those games? I don’t think that’s true.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 7, 2010 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Here's what a friend of mine on a non-sports board had to say about Rivers...
Just to be clear, I’m not really a Broncos fan. I follow them because they’re the local team, but I have no real attachment to them. Thus, my hatred for the Chargers is not because they are AFC West, but because Rivers is a total ****ing ****wad. The trash talking is only a symptom of the problem, he’s just a slimebag of a human being and I want to see him get sacked, repeatedly. I want grass stains on his face. I want him humiliated before his peers.

I found this opinion really suprising. But this is the perception outside of San Diego it seems.

by Orz on Jan 6, 2010 1:47 PM PST up reply actions  

And now this reply by someone else....
As my beloved Giants let me down this year, I will now spew out bitter vitriol about the teams. Well, one team. To wit: The only thing I hate more than Phillip Rivers is LaDanianaramabanana Tomlinson. Grr…. The sheer arrogance of those two just makes me so mad…

abwah? LT arrogant? I could see something possibly about him moping on the bench after his playoff injuries, but arrogant? eh?

by Orz on Jan 6, 2010 4:18 PM PST up reply actions  

At minimum, that'll take 3 years

And three straight Super Bowl wins.

Someone will always be going “Kiss the rings!” Which is why some fools would even put Eli over Rivers

by DanTails on Jan 6, 2010 4:05 PM PST up reply actions  

That would do it unambiguously.

But two rings and outlasting Roethlisberger would be enough.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 6, 2010 4:16 PM PST up reply actions  

The rings would only change a lot of small-minded peoples' perception

Rivers has already proven he’s a better QB than either Manning, Big Ben, Schaub and especially Losman. You just have to be smart enough to not give Big Ben credit for playing defense (which I think makes sense, but there are a lot of football people out there that make it sound as if he did).

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 4:28 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I'd give Ben credit for last year's Bowl

As would I for Eli’s somewhat. Both leg game winning drives in the 4th Quarter, showing elusiveness and a refusal to go down. (Ben moreso then Eli, Ben’s practically made it a trademark)

by DanTails on Jan 6, 2010 4:34 PM PST up reply actions  

That's fine

It’s still just one good performance in one game for each. There’s nothing magical about it being in the Super Bowl. You can’t give them more credit for them doing just those little things than you can give Rivers for an entire career.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 4:40 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Trent Dilfer

thinks Rivers is the second coming of Dan Marino. Said as much on ESPN.com. The attitude, the accuracy, the poise, the pocket presence, the release.

"I aim to misbehave." - Mal Reynolds

by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 6, 2010 6:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I always though of Peyton Manning as the second coming of Marino

Turns out… there’s no such thing as a second coming. They are all the firsts.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 11:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I personally don't..

But others do. (Well, that and their respective playoff runs)

by DanTails on Jan 6, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Rivers is better than Big Ben and certainly than Eli

But both those guys have rings, and that’s certainly because they performed well in more games than just one; and there is something “magical” about performing well in the Super Bowl.

If Rivers and the Bolts win it all this year, he will be considered by most to have vaulted past Big Ben — for the moment, at the very least; of course many Steeler fans will disagree since they have two rings under BR, but even most NYG fans will acknowledge that Rivers has gone by Eli at this juncture, despite Eli’s having a ring.

Since Rivers IS in the MVP discussion (yes, most people think Peyton will win it, but many national media figures ARE putting Rivers into the discussion), he’s clearly better than Ben this year, but their overall careers are fairly comparable, with Rivers having somewhat better stats (esp. more recently) and the Steelers having better playoff success than the Chargers under THEIR 2004 draftee…. Hopefully that changes in the next several weeks.

Going forward I’d take Philip over anyone. Fans of other teams can be very reasonable to be happy with Peyton Manning (not necessarily his younger brother), Brady, Brees, Aaron Rogers, and Big Ben (who has to learn to take fewer sacks, that’s for sure)…. Favre has been better than Brady this year, so he’s in Top 5 at the moment, but of course he’s 40+, so not in the discussion of Who’s the Guy you’d like to have going forward…. Schaub and Romo are #‘s 8 & 9 (yeah, one or both may be better than Brady at the moment, but Brady’s got the playoff track record), with Warner, McNabb, and Flacco rounding out the Top 12, IMO, not necessarily in that order.

by jctess on Jan 7, 2010 12:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Apparently no one told you

There’s no such thing as magic.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 7, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Nice word play -- I love it!

It’s all a subjective impression, of course. Obviously a ton of hard work and instinct can put a team and players in position for “magic” to happen.

I’ll bet NY Giant fans think Eli’s Houdini act to get away from the pass rush and David Tyree’s catch were “magical.” Same for Roethlisberger’s throw and Santonio Holmes’ catch last year. Montana to Clark against the Cowboys.

Then there’s a play like the “Immaculate Reception.” Luck? Some, for sure. “Magic?” Depends on the perspective, I guess.

Aw, hell, there IS no such thing as magic. I agree: when mad skills combine with dramatic timing in a particular situation, it’s hard to describe. Words don’t do it justice, so we grasp for an expression that tries to speak to a moment’s being special, the more pedestrian being transcended.

However one wants to think about it or express it, bring on a “magical” moment or two (or three) leading the Chargers to a Victory in Miami…!

by jctess on Jan 7, 2010 10:15 PM PST up reply actions  

The difference is

Both had top 5 defenses to rely on.

by SJO on Jan 7, 2010 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I wouldn't call that NYG defense top 5.

That seems like a stretch even given their playoff success and the low standards for defense in 2007. Eli did have a top 5 running game though.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 7, 2010 1:12 PM PST up reply actions  

2007 Giants Defense, well technically you're right, but that D-line was insane.

7th in Total yards per game
8th in Rush yards per game
11th in Pass yards per game
1st in Sacks
T-3rd Defensive TDs

by SJO on Jan 7, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

And more quantitatively

14th by DVOA and 13th by weight DVOA. 15th against the pass, 9th against the run. In their pas defense components 21st against #1 WRs, 6th against #2 WRs, 7th against other WR, 29th against TEs and 29th against RBs. They were #1 in adjusted sack rate though. The DLine was decent against the run too, 3rd in ALY and 6th in stuffs, but they were 17th in power runs and 23rd in giving up 10+ yard carries.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 7, 2010 2:17 PM PST up reply actions  

That #3 D-line was true

I also think they played inconsistently alot, but when they were on, they were on…which they were for those 4 playoff games.

by SJO on Jan 7, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Darren Smith is brain dead

He’s wasted about 15minutes BSing with AJ

by AirNorval on Jan 6, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

How is Darren Smith on the air?

He has so little to say and repeats himself endlessly, which means even if he does make a decent point, by the time he’s done making it for the 6th time in 5 minutes, it’s totally annoying…. At first I thought he was better more on his own than when he was with “Philly Billy,” but that impression wore off: he’s lame in either context.

by jctess on Jan 7, 2010 12:29 AM PST up reply actions  

You touched on it a little in the article

Rivers still has the reputation of being the loud-mouthed, trash-talking, taunting immature QB. The taunting of Cutler in the Christmas Eve game in 2007 from the sidelines to the jawing with fans in Indy in the Divisional game of 2008, both were on nationally-televised games. And I think until he wins it all, that reputation will follow him everywhere.

Hell, when he got flagged for “taunting” in the opening game against Oakland, the general consensus was “well there’s a shocker, Rivers taunting.”

I’ve defended his “taunting” because never has it been really truly mean-spirited or even derogatory. You could clearly hear in Indy that all he was saying to the fans was, “thanks, I appreciate that.” When the fans were likely shouting much worse things, unfit for TV. I’ve heard him liken it to just the jawing that goes on in regular backyard football games, and that’s really all it is. It’s part of the competition, it’s what makes it fun.

We know for a fact that other players, especially linemen and linebackers say much worse things, but for whatever reason, quarterbacks are held to a higher standard and must “conduct themselves accordingly.” Why? I like to see my quarterback playing with a fire under his butt and get excited about the game. Is that really so bad?

by creanium on Jan 6, 2010 1:36 PM PST reply actions  

Does this reputation still exist?

I haven’t heard any major media outlet refer to this stuff in a loooong time.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I think it’s lost some traction with the media, but it’s still alive among fans of other teams.

Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Jan 6, 2010 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

yep

got a lot of friends who are fans of other teams, and they all, EVERY one of them think Rivers is an arrogant sh_t. the one thing is that now, finally, they are saying he’s an incredibly good, arrogant sh_t.

"I suggest more bike" ~KSK

www.throughbucknerslegs.com

by justdave on Jan 6, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions  

In what way do you think the two things are connected?

Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Jan 6, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't want to speak for Dan Tails

but what the hell. I think he is just saying when someone dislikes a team or a player they look for things to complain about. Right now there is not much negative to say about Rivers, for the Rivers or Charger haters, so they have to hang their hat on his supposed “loud mouth antics”. We (charger fans) hate the Broncos and at the time Cutler so some jumped on the “crybaby” thing.
I think most players like the criticism from other teams fans, if you were not so good they would not hate you so much. Rivers should wear it as a badge.

by JeromeB on Jan 6, 2010 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Cutler’s not that good and people still hate him.

Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Jan 6, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Funny and True

As far as Charger fans go, I think the original hatred of Cutler came from him being a Bronco and the fact that he was supposed to be the “hot young gun” who was going to lead the Broncos to success.
As time has passed his poor play and poor choice of words (in certain situations) has helped him continue to build his mountain of hate.

by JeromeB on Jan 6, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions  

My issue with Cutler is how much of a dick he comes across as in interviews.

Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Jan 6, 2010 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Frankly, I thought he was ok until that Week 17 '08 press conference

after we whupped them. Reporter throws a softball at him, a chance to talk up the other guy in the wake of a loss, and what’s he do? He says the team that just clobbered his ass really secretly sucks and was only saved by the incompetence of his defense.

Loser.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!

by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 6, 2010 9:46 PM PST up reply actions  

People would say the same with Rivers

The difference to me is that when you listen to Rivers he sounds like an intelligent good ol’ boy with too many thoughts spilling out of his mouth.

Cutler sounds like an aloof doofus. I’d love to know what coaches have thought of him in the film room or how well he retains coaching.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 11:18 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Definitely still exists

Listen to them on ESPN. Right before they say how good he is they say, “Rivers, the firey, trash talking Charger QB”. I still hear it all of the time. At least now they mention that he can back it up.

by Schwing on Jan 6, 2010 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

This is right

It’s now almost (almost) cast as part of his appeal when analysts/commentators talk about him, more often referred to as “brash” or “gutsy” or other like positive-connotation words rather than “arrogant” or “cocky” but the impression is still there. I think the early descriptions came with an attitude that he’d eventually fall flat or be bitten by his “attitude,” but now with a track record of success as a QB they have to give in a little. Rest assured, when and if the moment comes that he faces a new stretch of personal or team adversity, some number of the “experts” will revert to the negative-connotation words.

by Lenny Suckerpunch on Jan 6, 2010 3:39 PM PST up reply actions  

It seems to me that the analysts who like him are the ex-players who were once branded as mouthy.

Ditka approves, Keyshawn loves the guy, and Howie Long respects him. I know Collinsworth and Shannon “Mfuwubbla” Sharpe dislike him, and those guys were never particularly fiery on the field…

Banned from Arrowhead Pride... and Music City Miracles certainly don't like me very much, either.

"Ah act the way ah feel." --Elvis Presley

by StrangeBroP25 on Jan 6, 2010 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, but he was a tight end.

Who gives a damn what they say? Besides ours, of course.

Banned from Arrowhead Pride... and Music City Miracles certainly don't like me very much, either.

"Ah act the way ah feel." --Elvis Presley

by StrangeBroP25 on Jan 6, 2010 6:31 PM PST up reply actions  

yes.

you just are smart enough to stay away from ESPN daytime TV. or are either smart or dumb, but employed.

by Dalton on Jan 6, 2010 4:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Being employed sure does suck.

Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate

by Richard Wade on Jan 6, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Should we also take into account

That in this day and age the main thing the media focuses on are the stories where somebody is screwing up? The national perception of any one person/event/team is always going to be skewed by the public’s urge to call people idiots or laugh at others’ failures and foibles.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Well said, Creanium.

I agree that Rivers’ “taunting” is not “really truly mean-spirited or even derogatory.” I’ve stated that elsewhere on a BFTB post, and I think most other players know this and respect Philip for being a competitor…. Many fans of teams the Chargers are defeating don’t like it, because losing feels bad, and it “feels” worse if you believe you’re having your nose rubbed in the loss….

Rivers is exactly the kind of guy fans of opposing teams love to hate, but would immediately love if he were on their team.

It’s kind of like Favre, who has a similar annoying enthusiasm if you’re rooting against him (although Favre doesn’t gab like Rivers does)….

On the other hand, Rivers has got to be one of the most likable guys I’ve ever seen at the podium: he’s refreshing, honest, always gives credit to his teammates and respect to the other team — both before and after games; and, unlike Peyton Manning, who’ll throw his own teammates under the bus in defeat even when HE has made mistakes (in addition to his teammates making some), Rivers always takes responsibility for his mistakes…. Granted, there have been fewer and fewer of them for him to “own” over time, but he has remained “down-to-earth,” for lack of better phrase, throughout — grounded, not egocentric, able to see reality and be objective…. Even without having lifted the Lombardi Trophy (Yet), he is and has always been a Winner.

by jctess on Jan 7, 2010 1:15 AM PST up reply actions  

I think Peyton is getting more MVP love...

Because he is seen as having the role of being the coach, too, guiding pretty much the entire offense on his shoulders, choosing the play at the line, specifying each and every assignment, while Phillip, as far as I know, is not nearly as much of an audibler.

by DanTails on Jan 6, 2010 4:38 PM PST reply actions  

I think the faster start was key

Especially after losing his #2 WR, his head coach and his former #1 WR.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 6, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

In that case,

Peyton should win MVP or Caldwell Coach of the Year, but not both.

by SJO on Jan 7, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Not sure if anyone mentioned this

but Rivers is 3-3 in the playoffs, not 3-2. I think this article brings up a great point that the only way for Rivers (and norv for that matter) to get the recognition they deserve is to win a Superbowl.

by Billybills on Jan 6, 2010 10:32 PM PST reply actions  

Yep

Lurking for ages, and somehow this was the post that got me to sign up. Sure we’d all love to forget the 2006 atrocity against NE, but it DID happen. Rivers is 3-3, not 3-2.

by TheBoltEater on Jan 6, 2010 11:38 PM PST up reply actions  

oh, right...

norv is 3-2…here’s hoping for 6-2

"that wasn't a very good start to us getting our lives together. i didn't even go to work today."

...ya'll are brutalizing me... ronnie dobbs

by notorioushbi on Jan 7, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Norv is 3-1

with the Chargers.

He is 4-3 overall.

(And because I’m sick of hearing that “Marty couldn’t win in the playoffs”, Marty was 5-13 in playoffs including 3 AFC Championship games, which is two more than Norv. I’m not a Marty apologist and I approved of his firing, but people saying idiotic things annoys me. He could win, he just didn’t with us.)

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 7, 2010 10:39 AM PST up reply actions  

omg I hate life

that title was supposed to confirm that Norv was 3-2, but then specify that it was with the Chargers. I don’t know where that 3-1 came from. I blame the Preview button. It tricked me.

I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.

by Wonko on Jan 7, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions  

bastard preview button...

yeah, i was just referring to his record with the chargers…c’mon 6-2, or 7-3…however you want to count it

"that wasn't a very good start to us getting our lives together. i didn't even go to work today."

...ya'll are brutalizing me... ronnie dobbs

by notorioushbi on Jan 7, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Anxious reader.

 All right i’m one of those thousands of readers of BFTB that has never left a comment or even signed in for that matter. But there is a first time for everything.
  I am super exited about this years team. I was and still am a Brees fan and was skeptical when he left. But have seen that AJ does acually know football talent.
  Any ways i feel like Rivers will get the recognition he deserves and hope this years playoff/last game of the year run will be a big part of his legacy with the chargers.

GO BOLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by big staxx on Jan 7, 2010 2:19 PM PST reply actions  

I just don't see it

How there are so many people out there that just straight up hate Rivers and LT is scary.
Maybe it’s because when i was born the dr cut my cord and powder blue blood came spewing out. But i seriously don’t see it. Really how many football players do more for their cities then LT. I can’t think of many.And Rivers seems to be just a great father/ husband/ football player. If thats what ticks people off then this is one crazy world.

by big staxx on Jan 7, 2010 2:39 PM PST reply actions  

Think about it.

How many guys around the league do you “hate”. Guys like Cutler, Brady, Manning or others. As someone above stated, “being hated” is actually a badge of honor, it means that you are successful enough to be noticed. Now consider the things that LT and Rivers have done (whining on the sidelines, complaining to Belichek about “dancing” on our 50-yard line), and Rivers (jawing and jarring, both players, and fans). People will find anything to hate about them, since they are on the “other team”, just like we find anything to hate about other players around the league not on the Chargers.

by SJO on Jan 7, 2010 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

i used to have dreams...

about making tom “ass-chin” brady my nancy kerrigan….i still don’t like him at all…i think he’s a total doucher, but i’ve been processing my emotions with a therapist and bernard pollard beat me to it (for the love of God don’t take that literally, i’d never wish injury on anyone, no matter how much of a cock shiner i believe them to be)

"that wasn't a very good start to us getting our lives together. i didn't even go to work today."

...ya'll are brutalizing me... ronnie dobbs

by notorioushbi on Jan 8, 2010 8:09 AM PST up reply actions  

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