Franchise Tag and the Draft
by zabosox33 on Jan 29, 2010 7:37 AM PST
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I was just curious if there's any talk going around about who the Chargers will franchise tag this year? As compared to last year when everyone knew and talked about Sproles, this year there's been nothing so far. Also, I made a small list of some draft prospects that I believe could possibly help the Chargers in the future. These aren't obvious picks, I'm just throwing a few names out there that I believe would be a good fit.
Jared Odrick DT/DE, Penn St
#4 DT on Scott Wright's draft countdown; very athletic, fits the 3-4 system well as either a DT or a DE.
Stafon Johnson RB, USC
I know this is the other position where a lot of attention has fallen, and I'm not saying Johnson is a better RB than Spiller or Dwyer, he's not the biggest or the fastest, but the man has something to prove. Could be a great pick if he's still available in later rounds.
Mardy Gilyard WR, Cincy
Yes, I've read all the stories about the Senior bowl and his troubles running routes and dropping balls. Yes, I know he's only 6'1 180. But I would really like to see this guy lining up at WR for San Diego. Assuming we sign both Jackson and Floyd, I believe Gilyard could be a solid complement to all of our gigantic receivers.
Andrew Quarless, TE Penn St
One thing I noticed this season was the use of the Chargers 3 TE's. As the season went along, Manumaleuna (a UFA) was mainly used as a OL/FB type. There's even articles around saying he should make the shift to fulltime OL. Anyways, the Chargers had many weapons at WR and of course Gates, but Kris Wilson seemed to make a small impact every once in awhile. I see Quarless and the Wilson type (special teams/goal line situations) with tons of potential to put it all together in the future. Maybe Quarless is a 7th rounder or even a free agent.
Let me know what you guys think.
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Assuming there is no new CBA
Alot of the guys we would think about franchising will be restricted free agents, which means we can give them a one year “tender offer” which essentially means that any other team the signs them has to give up draft picks to us. So, I think our impact guys who will be free agents is a pretty short list:
1. Kassim Osgood
2. Darren Sproles
3. and thats it…
With the caveat that anything can happen, I can’t see Sproles or Kassim being franchised.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Jan 29, 2010 8:07 AM PST reply actions
Agreed
Sproles won’t be getting $7 mil this year and Kassim shouldn’t be paid like a top 5 WR just because he’s a great Special Teamer.
So although there’s essentially 2 franchise tags, neither will be used.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jan 29, 2010 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
I wonder if AJ might use a franchise tag on one the RFAs
just to make extra-sure we don’t lose them…
Perhaps on McNeill or VJ? Outside chance on Merriman although I think AJ would be happy enough with a 1st and 3rd for Merriman.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Jan 29, 2010 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
Why?
1st/3rd tender costs. $2.8M. Franchise tag (effectively a 1st/1st, but that’s over 2 years, so really it’s a 1st/2nd) varies by position, but it’s several times that for OTs and WRs.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 29, 2010 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
you're probably right
I was thinking mainly of McNeill and in terms of the following scenario:
If I was a team looking to get a Left Tackle in this year’s draft, would I rather spend my 1st round pick on an unproven LT out of college, or would I rather chip in an additional third round pick and get McNeill, an NFL proven LT? If I’m a team in the lower half of the draft, this becomes close to a sure-fire yes. I think upping the ante to a franchise tag and two first rounders makes it a little less of a sure fire yes.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Jan 29, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
I expect McNeil to be signed shortly
The only reason they didn’t do it last year was because of the neck injury.
Also keep in mind, if the team wants him to a multiyear deal they can always match whatever the team giving up the 1st and 3rd offered.
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Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
good point about the matching
tendering a RFA gives you the right to match whatever contract they might sign with another team, instead of taking the draft picks.
Did the NFL ever do anything to restrict the “poison pill” contracts? If I remember correctly Steve Hutchinson (Guard) was transition tagged by the Seahawks. Minnesotta made him an offer that included some ludicrous bonus if he played a certain number of games in Seattle. This essentially would cause the same contract to be much more expensive for Seattle than it was for Minnesotta. So Seattle was unable to match it.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Jan 29, 2010 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think it's been addressed with any rules
Hutchinson’s deal was actually that if he wasn’t the highest-paid OL on the team, the whole contract became guaranteed. With Walter Jones already on the Seahawks, Hutch wouldn’t be the highest-paid and basically no team is going to sign a long-term, all-guaranteed deal.
Seattle returned the favor with their contract offer to Nate Burleson, and I think the “poison pill” game has since ended, whether through a gentlemens’ agreement or just not being done. But it could be fun to see it come up again this offseason. Maybe Sam can come up with some creative offers for other teams’ RFAs and forward them to the Chargers for a law school project.
by Lenny Suckerpunch on Jan 29, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
I dont understand the philosophy that we should draft another Kris Wilson when we already have the original (and he’s only 27).
Are you saying Manumaleuna should be made a fulltime backup OL? Because’ he’s not fast or athletic enough to play OT, and it’d be silly to have somebody as old (and inexperienced) as him playing backup OG when those snaps will just go to Mooch anyways. Also, Brandon’s blocking has gotten a little worse each year he’s been in SD.
if you’re arguing that Kris Wilson should be made #2 TE and Manumaleuna released……I don’t agree, but it’s a better argument.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jan 29, 2010 8:33 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Wilson is a UFA
If the Chargers re-sign Manumaleuna I don’t see wilson wanting to stick around as a 3rd string TE.
How much does Manumaleuna have left?
And John, why don’t you think they should release him and sign Wilson? Manu was a very good player not very long ago, and he’s still serviceable, but this team doesn’t need a TE or a FB, and I agree that he’s not a real OL. Are you saying they need more of a blocker type and should only be carrying 2 TEs because they carry 2 FBs? I can see that one… but then who backs up Gates?
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 29, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
I am saying Wilson should be the #2 TE
Whether or not Manumaleuna should or shouldnt be released I still feel like Wilson has become a better player overall in what a tight end should be able to do. Manu has been a nice piece for this team for a few years now, but this year other than being used as a blocker, he was a non-factor. Wilson on the other hand helped out in different packages and on special teams. I guess to answer your first question, I wouldnt change Manu into a fulltime OL only because exactly what you said, there’s already guys in front of him AND bc of his age. I’m just throwing Quarless out there because he is almost a spitting image of a mix between Gates/Wilson.
WTF
Is the spitting image of Gates and Wilson. In my mind, they are two completely different types of Tight Ends and Quarless strikes me as very different from both of them (maybe closer to Gates in his early career due to raw athleticism mixed with cluelessnes about how to play the position).
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
well wonko
Since I’ve been watching Quarless since his freshman year, you’re right in saying early in his career he was raw but had athleticism, but once his junior/senior years came around, they began using him more and more for other things, not just passing routes. He’d line up in the backfield in shotgun formations (similar to Manu, I don’t recall Wilson ever doing that though) other times he’d line up split out as a WR (like Gates).. The only reason I’m spending so much time harping about the Chargers possible 3 TE’s is like Stephen said, we use 3 TE’s alot. These are all just possibilites.
I guess what I'm trying to say
is I believe next season Gates and Wilson will be our 2 TE’s. Now thats a very safe assumption, but I’m still not sold that Manu will or won’t be back next year. Like you’ve stated, his dipped his hand in numerous tasks and he’s done a serviceable job there, but if they decide to carry 3 TE’s again, why not a guy like Quarless or another shifty TE to use in goaline sets and on special teams.
How many shifty TEs can a team have?
I’m with Wonko in that the differences between Gates and Wilson is significant, but I’d classify both as “shifty” by TE standards. Then there is Legedude. And the two receiving fullbacks. On a 53-man roster, we have bigger needs.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 29, 2010 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
we usually do have 3 TEs on the roster
Since we run a lot of 2 TE sets, I think it would really limit us if one of our TEs was hurt during a game and we only had two active TEs. Although perhaps a guy like Nannee could play there in a pinch. Or maybe since Manu really just blocks, we could have an OL fill that spot in case of injury.
I think I’ve talked myself into 3 TEs.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Jan 29, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
I think
For the 2010 season, I’d prefer to have a similar setup at TE. Gates obviously as the starter. I’d then like a block first TE that could be a young guy with the athletic ability to become more than that, but for 2010 would be mainly used to block. And then a 3rd TE that is an H-Back type like Wilson, who is a jack-of-all-trades and can back up both guys, but can be used in the same formations as Wilson. Maybe that means having Manu and Wilson at those two spots, but I’d like to see if there are some options in the draft or UDFA that could possibly fit those roles.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
Needs
RB – LT is gone, draft a RB to replace him. Plenty are available after the third round: James Starks, Lamarcus Coker, Joique Bell, Stafon Johnson
TE – draft a TE in the mid to late rounds to complement Gates, someone with good size whom can move and block well, run decent routes. TE’s I like: Michael Hoomanawanui, Jimmy Graham
DL – Even if Martin miracuously works his way into becoming a NFL NT during the offseason, we’re still going to need a replacement for Cesaire. I think 2 early picks need to be made on the DL. Tyson Aluala or Sean Carrington would be my choice in the first 2 rounds at DE. Torrell Troup would be a good choice at NT in the 3rd.
SS – Gregory is passable but this position needs upgrading. I wouldn’t mind taking a good SS in the draft somewhere in the early to mid rounds. Knowing AJ’s infatuation with LSU players he could very well take Chad Jones in the 2nd.
ILB – Cooper is nearing the end of the line. If we don’t draft a very good ILB this year, we’re going to have to next year. Guys I’m high on: Pat Angerer, Micah Johnson 4th rounders
Gregory was our nickel back
Not our SS. Our starting safeties were Weddle and a rotation of Ellison and Oliver.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
My bad
Regardless, I think this position is a need. Ellison continues to improve but we have very little depth here. Oliver isn’t physical enough. I think AJ will probably pickup a SS for depth and if he sees one availble whom he really likes he may go high.
by Bluelightning on Jan 29, 2010 9:08 PM PST up reply actions
agree.
need a SS to develop
Gary Potter: Harness in the good energy, block out the bad. Harness. Energy. Block. Bad. It's like a carousel. You put the quarter in, you get on the horse, it goes up and down, and around. Circular, circle. Feel it. Go with the flow.
Happy Gilmore: Psycho.
You can't "replace" LT with a back you find after the 3rd round
You could attempt to replace him, but it’s very risky that you’ll actually hit on a guy that wasn’t drafted in the top 2 rounds. I’m sure there will be a couple of backs past the 3rd that becomes starting NFL running backs, but as a responsible organization you can’t leave yourself exposed by assuming that a guy you picked after the 3rd round can be your starting running back immediately.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
This is River's team
RB is simply a complement to our passing attack. The upgrade is simply to make the running game NFL-average. While a Chris Johnson type back would be ideal, we can get by with lesser talent if we limit handoffs to 10-15 times a game. I’d argue a commitment to the run would hurt our offensive efficiency. Rivers gets 9yds/attempt at a 65% completion rate – a back would need to avg 6 yds a carry to equal this: basically Barry Sander’s 1997 season. A running back with good hands, decent size 220, sub 4.5 speed, to complement our passing attack is all that is needed. James Starks and Bell fit this descriptopn perfectly. Coker is smaller but faster. Bell is probably the most skilled RB I’ve seen, he looks tremendously polished moves great in space, great stiffarm, excellent vision, just doesn’t have the burst and acceleration to make him Barry Sanders. I’d be happy with any of the three. And I think while they will not be pro-bowlers they will get the job done adequately.
by Bluelightning on Jan 29, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
I just have a hard time believing
That you can do anything except downgrade the running game by using a late round talent in the backfield. It may be Rivers’ team and a passing offense, but downgrading the running game is not the way to go. The Chargers need to be looking for someone who can finish runs and get some extra yards that LT and Sproles couldn’t get this year. Also, one of the things that gets lost with relying on the passing game so much is that the Chargers put all that passing on film for others to see come playoff time. Running the ball more effectively would help the Chargers to be a little more effective with the passing later in the year. As great as our passing game is, the team cannot afford to be one dimensional. Balance is very important, maybe not for every game, but in the course of the season a more productive running game will only help the passing game be more explosive. Coryell’s offense was at its best when Muncie was there. Turner’s offense won it’s only championships with Emmitt Smith in the backfield.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
Believe the math
passing efficiency trumps rushing efficiency. A downgrade you say? We paid 6M to have LT run up the middle, get stuffed, and fall or trip forward 2-3 yds 20x a game. It won’t take much to equal his production. Not much at all.
by Bluelightning on Jan 30, 2010 6:24 PM PST up reply actions
I agree
But it takes more than a late round draft pick. Or rather, the chances that a late round draft pick will match him is unlikely because most will be busts or backups.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
RB: Have the wheels fallen off the Toby Gerhart wagon? I still like pairing him with a speedster like Starks or Brandon James.
In agreement with you on TE, but we shouldn’t go with a high pick there.
DL/NT: Some of the guys on the board will be worth a hard look, but likely none will fall to #29.
SS: Didn’t we just draft some guy named Kevin Ellison last year?
ILB: Agree completely. I’ve been talking up Angerer for months now. I also like Sean Lee from Penn State and Weatherspoon out of Mizzou.
Banned from Arrowhead Pride... and Music City Miracles certainly don't like me very much, either.
"Ah act the way ah feel." --Elvis Presley
by StrangeBroP25 on Jan 29, 2010 5:56 PM PST up reply actions
Gerhart’s lack of speed and hands is a liability in the passing game. While Hester and Tolbert may be slightly less efficient than Gerhart at pounding the ball both offer much more (special teams + passing game) and as such I don’t see any reason to get Gerhart, or another pounder like Gatrell Johnson and Marcus Thomas.
by Bluelightning on Jan 29, 2010 10:02 PM PST up reply actions
We dont need a fast burner.
Someone that can provide a physical presence up the middle that LT cannot come close to bringing could be very valuable. Hester is not the answer to all that much, Tolbert is the only thing we have close to a big back.
LaMichael James + Kenjon Barner + Lache Seastrunk + Dontae Williams + Remene Alston + Kenaon Lowe + ...
Forgive me if I disagree
but I see absolutely no point in getting a RB who can run drag people 4 yds but can’t catch or run a route. Ideally the RB we get can also create mismatches in coverage against LBs.
by Bluelightning on Jan 30, 2010 6:34 PM PST up reply actions
Ideally, we would draft two backs, or draft one and sign one
I can imagine getting Gerhart/Blount/Johnson/Dixon/Bell and McCluster/James/Starks/Coker/McKnight (any combination thereof) in the same draft.
Banned from Arrowhead Pride... and Music City Miracles certainly don't like me very much, either.
"Ah act the way ah feel." --Elvis Presley
by StrangeBroP25 on Jan 30, 2010 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
That's not ideal
That’s settling. Ideally you find a big, fast running back that can catch, run great routes, pass block, can carry guys on his back, doesn’t fumble and is durable. And then a backup that can do all that but not quite as well.
Ideally.
Does it really matter if we get guys that are fast or big or have hands? As long as they do something well you can craft a role for them. But, if you do have a limited back like that, then it’s probably better to have two of them that compliment each other. However, the chances of the Chargers drafting two RBs seems unlikely.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
They’ll be dumping two RBs, and they don’t have the need positions to go with their six draft picks: a second RB to draft might not be a terrible plan.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 31, 2010 5:29 AM PST up reply actions
At Buffalo
Starks was used more like a bruiser. But he has good, soft hands and was quite productive catching the ball out of the backfield
by Bluelightning on Jan 31, 2010 1:44 AM PST up reply actions
Mismatches in LB coverage?
What do you think Antonio Gates’ role in the offense is? TE’s are supposed to exploit coverage deficiencies in linebackers, and Gates sure does.
Not to mention, you assume that there are no big backs that can catch passes; this is simply not true at all.
Another factor you left out of consideration is blitz pickup. A guy like Dexter McCluster is going to have a lot of trouble blocking blitzers, whereas a bigger back obviously will stand up better in pass protection.
LaMichael James + Kenjon Barner + Lache Seastrunk + Dontae Williams + Remene Alston + Kenaon Lowe + ...
I'm pretty sure
That McCluster is good at pass protection. Although, you’d have to be insane not to wonder if he can maintain that in the pros. His technique and willingness are not in question though.
That said, if I were the OC, I’d line him up out wide in passing situations, he’s so quick that he’d be a great hot read on a blitz.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
One play
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=4636259
On the play, Sproles, who was bracketed by a linebacker and safety, ran a precise “H-seam” route to get inside the coverage for the big first down.
That was huge in the win against the Giants. No way Gerhart can do that. The linebacker couldn’t keep up and the safety was late if I recall. Bell and Starks have the skillset to do that against a slow linebacker, Coker is blazing fast with good hands.
You are right about pass protection. A bigger back is more desirable there. But Bell 5-11 223, Coker 5-10 205, and Starks 6-2 218 can all get the job done.
by Bluelightning on Jan 31, 2010 1:40 AM PST up reply actions
We have our starting DEs.
Between Nwagbuo, Boone, Martin and Johnson, there’s one, and then there’s Castillo.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jan 30, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
To quote Yoda...
“Simply having bodies to line up doesn’t quality make.”
You need a DE who can hold the line to help stuff the run (ala Jamal in the middle), but also generate a push up the middle to help collapse the pocket (ala no one on this team since Joe Pascale was DC).
by Andy (allfield) on Feb 1, 2010 10:41 AM PST reply actions
How much can you put into it?
We’ve put two first-round picks (ok, only one of ‘em was ours) on the DE spots, and we took a gamble on a physical freak last year at the same position. It’s seriously premature to put another really early pick on the DE spot. Obviously, the DL needs help, but I think the best way to get that help is with a big clogger, to let our better-than-they-look ends do their thing and not just get overwhelmed.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Feb 1, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
Who did we use a first round pick on at DE
Other than Castillo back in 2005? Olshansky and Martin all were not first round picks and the rest of the DEs the Chargers have used over the last few years were not drafted by the Chargers.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
I do believe he is referring to Travis Johnson
who was a 1st rounder with the Texans
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Feb 1, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
O I C
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
My thought would be
regarding “how much you can put into it?” is that if you see someone that has first round talent and the potential to be stud run stuffer and pass rusher from the DE spot and there is no one else you like more at that point, then you pull the trigger on another DE even though the Chargers have already spent a decent amount there. The guys that fit that profile and have the potential to even sniff the 2nd half of the first round, IMO, are Carlos Dunlap and, to a lesser extent, Jared Odrick. Both would take a perfect set of circumstances to acquire though because Dunlap could go much higher, so either he’d need to slip based on other teams’ needs/rankings or the Chargers trading up to get him and then Odrick would require quite a few better prospects to be off the board by the time the Chargers draft. In the latter case, trading down would probably be a better option.
I'm the first person to admit that I'm wrong about a lot of things, but I'm going to be the last person to admit I'm wrong about what we're currently talking about.
Bolts from the Blue - General Manager: It is what it isn't
OK. But it’s hardly a major position of need. And we have major need positions.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Feb 1, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
Based on past experiences...
…that is, the way AJ reaches with 1st round picks (see English, Larry; Davis, Buster; and Cason, Antoine), it sounds like Odrick is our guy!
by Andy (allfield) on Feb 2, 2010 1:32 PM PST up reply actions
In my ideal offseason
We’d bring over LenDale White from Tennessee, I think they’ll let him go(even though he’s and RFA) because he’s unhappy there and they’re fine running the ball with Chris Johnson(who wouldn’t be).
In the first round we’d take a DT
In the second either an OLB or a RB
If we hadn’t taken an RB by the 3rd an RB for sure
From there it might be nice to pick up a MLB or WR, maybe an O lineman
"I sawed a woman in the park today"
Not bad grammar. Just recollections of a deranged killer.
by TritonEye on Feb 2, 2010 1:23 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
LenDale White has a minimum 2nd round tender.
I think the Titans would have to decide that he’s not worth pretty much exactly his share of the player-salary pie ($2M out of $100M) before March 1st, or there’s no chance whatsoever.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Feb 4, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe White and a 1st for VJ?
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Feb 4, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
Lets not forget
We are very good at throwing the ball. I don’t think we should put that in jeoprady just so we can upgrade our running game from crap to below average. We shouldn’t compromise an area of strength to put a bandaid on an area of weakness.
VJ is one of the best WRs in football… I don’t think he is going anywhere in 2010.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Feb 4, 2010 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
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