How Does Philip Rivers Compare to Ben and Eli?

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 15, 2009 2:00 PM PDT

Hello, Bolts From The Blue readers. As my username shows, I am a Steelers fan, but also a North Carolina State Wolfpack fan, so I am a big fan of Philip Rivers. I recently completed a post at my blog, called Checking the Numbers, comparing Rivers with other elite QBs taken in the 2004 NFL draft. In the post, I take a detailed look at how Philip's numbers compare with Ben Roethlisberger's and Eli Manning's numbers so far in their careers. I thought you may be interested in it, so I emailed John, and he said go ahead with the Fanpost. Below is an excerpt from my post.

QB Philip Rivers (Lisa Blumenfeld/Getty)

Of course, being a Steelers fan, I love Ben Roethlisberger. I am also an NC State alum, so I love Philip Rivers as well. An argument can be made that he is one of the top 5-10 college quarterbacks ever, particularly considering that unlike other QBs in that discussion, he didn’t have a team filled with top 10 recruiting classes. Considering that and the fact that his college offense was a typical pro-style offense, not the run-and-shoot or spread, his numbers in college were staggering. Just check here, and scroll down to the bottom. With that said, I wanted to take a look at how Philip Rivers compares with his more decorated Draft Classmates. I realize that Rivers is the only first round QB from the 2004 NFL draft without a super bowl ring. But, that doesn’t mean he’s vastly inferior to Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning.

So, as I have already done in this post and this followup post on Ben vs. Eli, I will review Philip Rivers’s accomplishments against theirs. I will also review the level of defense that he faced so far in his career. He’s been hammered for playing in the weak AFC West, but has the Chargers’ defensive schedule overall been significantly weaker than the Steelers’ and Giants’ schedules? We’ll find out.

To read the rest of the post, please click here.

This FanPost was written by a member of the Bolts From The Blue community and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bolts From The Blue editors or SB Nation.

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Comments

Phil is by far the best QB.

No contest. The teams on the other hand, well the Steelers and the Giants have been better teams recently, as evidenced by their rings.

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." - Earl Weaver

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 15, 2009 5:37 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs

Couldn't have said it better myself

Rivers was also handicapped counting numbers-wise since he had to sit behind Brees while the other two started as rookies due to injury (Ben) and the lack of an incumbent QB (Eli).

Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.

by Wonko on Aug 15, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions

06 Chargers talented enough to win it all

While I agree that Rivers is the more talented of the three QBs, I think the 06 Chargers team was more than talented enough to win the Super Bowl. I don’t think Rivers was quite ready to lead the team to a Super Bowl victory in 06. Hopefully the defense will come close to the level of play that they had that season, because there is no doubt that Rivers is ready now.

by JeromeB on Aug 16, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions

Rivers best out of the three

I guess i’ll be the semi-biased charger fan that I am and say Rivers is the best out of the 3 and that’s truly how I feel. He’s only going to get better and I feel he’s already joined the leagues elite rings or no rings. Roethlisberger follows up a close 2nd because he’s got the intangible of being nearly impossible to sack and creating plays with his elusiveness. At the same time he has the best D in the league(maybe of all time last year) and I feel without that the steelers wouldn’t be that good. I don’t even think Eli belongs in the discussion. I don’t feel that he’s anywhere near elite status, more like a talented game manager, and if it weren’t for the Giants D he would not have been able to out score the Pats. Sorry but he gets no love in my list of elite QB’s, he’s overrated.

by Harsh_619 on Aug 15, 2009 6:44 PM PDT reply actions

best D

Harsh, I don’t know if you’d be interested, but I wrote something a while back on the best defenses of all time. I think this past year’s Steelers defense certainly compared favorably to some of the all time greats, especially considering the Steelers’ struggles in the running game. Anyway, the link is here.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 16, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions

Good Stuff

Your a statistics machine man! Props to you very awsome article my father-in-law is from pittsburgh and a die hard steelers fan so they get nothing but love from me. I think i can honestly say the 2008 steeler defense is the greatest i’ve seen in my life time (I’m 22 yrs. old), with the 2000 ravens coming up 2nd.

by Harsh_619 on Aug 18, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions

Thanks! :)

That post took a couple of weeks for me to do. I’m planning to do a followup sometime down the road, so you may want to check out Checking the Numbers periodically. Also, as my sig says, if you have any ideas for a statistical analysis, feel free to let me know.

I’m a little older (36), but last year’s Steelers were right up there in terms of defense in my lifetime. They certainly were in the mix with some of the historic greats, especially considering the poor rushing offense.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 18, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Wouldn't expect any other response

Thanks for the feedback. As I said, I believe that Rivers is right up there with Ben and Eli. In fact, I agree that Philip and Ben are very close in terms of QB ranking, while Eli is probably a distant 3rd. In my analysis, I wanted to say that Eli really didn’t deserve the SB MVP award, the Giants D-Line should have gotten it. But, I didn’t want to turn it into an Eli bashing session. Anyway, if I was to give Ben an edge over Philip in anything, it would have to be performance in the clutch. I’ll admit, I’m also basing this off of Rivers’ time at NC State. The year the Wolfpack went 11-3, we lost 3 games by less than 7 points, IIRC. In each one, we had a chance to win on the final drive and couldn’t punch it in. In this year alone, Ben has had multiple instances of having a chance to win on the final drive, and most times, he and the offense came through. But, again, I agree that the defense this year kept the Steelers in most games, giving Ben those opportunities.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 16, 2009 12:13 PM PDT reply actions

Good to see another Wolfpack on here.

Although I am a Dolphins and Chargers fan.

A's fan, trapped in North Carolina!

by RJ2549 on Aug 17, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Sweet!

Yeah, good to see another person from State. Have you seen Backing the Pack, the new SBN blog for State? The guy who runs it used to have a blog called Section Six for the ’pack.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 17, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions

Rivers is third.

I understand your Charger fans so you’re going to kill me for this…but please look at the following:

2008 Total Defense:
Kansas City – 31st overall
Denver – 29th Overall
Oakland – 27th Overall

And…

Philadelphia: 3rd Overall
Washington: 4rd Overall
Dallas: 8th Overall

If Eli was playing in beautiful 88 degree San Diego eight times a year against easily the weakest defensive division in football I bet he’d have some pretty stats to look at too. Instead, he plays in easily the toughest defensive division in football with consistently crappy weather, and yet has not missed the playoffs since becoming a starter.

You guys can claim that the defense won the Super Bowl for Eli, but last time I checked he threw two go ahead TD’s in the fourth quarter that game (one to cap an 83 yard drive with 30 seconds left after his DEFENSE gave up the lead)…only one other QB in the history of all things football has done that, you can look it up if you don’t know who it is.

So yea I would say that the only QB without a ring will fall in line BEHIND the QB’s with the rings. Wins are the most important stats, not QB rating (just look at John Elway).

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 25, 2009 11:07 AM PDT reply actions

Did you read my entire post?

I accounted for all defenses each have faced, and I’ve shown that the overall defensive ranking is lower for Rivers, however, since Eli’s numbers are significantly lower, it’s reasonable to believe that they are about on par with each other. And, sure, Eli came up with the win, but it sure was lucky that Asante Samuel dropped that pass (which he usually caught), or Eli would be just another SB loser. And, no one wanted the Pats* to lose more than me.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 25, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions

If if's and buts were candies and nuts...

…we’d all have a wonderful Christmas.

I did read your entire post, and I will tend to agree with your assumption they are on par with each other in that aspect. However, this leads with only one thing left to go by, and that’s Super Bowl victories. Phillip is a great QB, becoming a good leader (haven’t heard much in the way of mouthing off in recent years) and has proved (much like Eli) he will play hurt. But “if” is not an argument. “If” Brett Favre didn’t throw a pick to Corey Webster in the NFC Championship game that year he might have on a second Super Bowl. So I still say Eli gets the number two slot because he has earned a ring…which is where Phillip falls short.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 25, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions

Oh, ok

Since you only posted the NFC East and AFC West numbers, it made it look like you were not accounting for the rest of the schedule. Personally, I don’t think that either of the 3 is clearly ahead, but I have to say that thus far in his career, his only claim to fame is a 4 game stretch. It just so happens that that stretch led to a SB win. Outside of that stretch (and no, I’m not discounting his SB run), he is winless in the playoffs. It’s just hard for me to put more stock in one playoff run than the entire career. If he makes another, then he could fall more in the category of a Terry Bradshaw, someone whose career numbers are pedestrian, but who has proven himself in big games.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 25, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions

Agreed.

About none being clearly ahead of another.

But since you asked the question:
“How Does Philip Rivers Compare to Ben and Eli?”

The answer should read:
Ben has had the most success, winning two Super Bowls. He is #1.
Eli has not missed the playoffs, and has won one Super Bowl. He is #2.
Rivers has not missed the playoffs, but has yet to make a Super Bowl appearance, so he would rank #3.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 25, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions

Well

If the question were how do they rank in terms of championships, that would be true. But, QBs don’t win SBs all by themselves. They may get the most credit (and blame for losses), but anyone who watched SB XLII would say that there are two images that stick out from that game. First is the Tyree catch, and Eli did an excellent job getting away from the sack on that play. But, second would be the Giants’ DL beating the crap out of Tom Brady most of the game. Without the second image, the first would have been moot.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 25, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions

Okay...

But we both agreed due to the level of competition of both QB’s, they are on the same level…right?

So if two QB’s are on the same level…and one quarterback has a Super Bowl and a Super Bowl MVP, while the other quarterback has yet to make it there, who is more accomplished?

How else would you rank them?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 26, 2009 5:58 AM PDT up reply actions

Worthy points

IMO, it is also the fact that Manning has a SB ring and MVP that puts him on the same level as Rivers. Without the SB ring, they both have the same number of playoff wins and virtually nobody would say that Eli is comparable to Rivers, even with the difference in the level of competition. Then, a Giants fan would be the one doing an analysis saying that because he’s faced tougher competition, he should be compared favorably (or less unfavorably) against Ben and Rivers.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 26, 2009 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions

If dropoff in competition wasn't so blatently obvious...

It would be a non-issue.

But Giants fan or no Giants fan, anyone who can unbiasedly look at the statistics of the defenses they face (especially last year) within the division can clearly see Eli has a much harder regular season than Rivers. I mean, what other division in football has 4 out of 4 defenses in the top 10? What other division in football has 3 out of 4 defenses in the bottom 5?

What’s most fun about this argument is that we’ll actually get to see it play out this year. And I look forward to discussing the ups and downs of both quarterbacks in there respective games against each others divisions.

Until than good luck to your Steelers, and good luck to Rivers, here’s to hoping he can stay healthy throughout the playoffs and meet Eli in the Bowl.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 26, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions

Absolutely

You may have seen my comparison of Ben and Eli as well. Having done that one already, I was surprised at how much lower the defensive competition was for Rivers. The reason was that I saw a lot of overlap of opponents for Eli and Ben in their careers, and I expected that to probably be true for Eli and Rivers as well. But, still, the difference between average ranks for Eli and Philip was only about 2.3. That’s not quite the enormous difference you make it out to be.

And, except for his rookie year, Eli has had a top 10 rush offense supporting him each year. Rivers basically carried the team however far they went last season, because the Chargers rush attack was below average (ranked 20), and their defense also struggled last year. True, it was against some lower ranked defenses, but that just adds another dynamic to it.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 26, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions

Agreed and agreed.

But of course we can than bring up the fact Eli was without his number one target for most the season, and while Rivers doesn’t have a dominant receiver, Jackson is no slouch, and he does have the leagues most explosive tight end at his disposal. We could literally go on all day about this…which only means one thing…great post. Got me interested.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 26, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

True

Great points for both QBs, agreed.

Thanks, I’m glad you like it. :)

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 27, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions

This is a terrible argument

We are ranking QBs not teams. It’s like saying one pitcher is better than the other based on W-L records. Sorry, try again.

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this blog is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on our souls.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 27, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Last I checked...

QB’s are part of the team.

They have a role on the team that they are asked to perform.

In his role on the Giants Eli has never missed the playoffs, and has won a Super Bowl.

Phillip Rivers in his role, has not.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions

Once again

WE AREN’T COMPARING TEAMS. Geez.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 28, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions

We are comparing QB's on there teams.

Put Eli in a pass first offense against the worst defenses in the league six times a year, with one of the best RB’s in football (when healthy) one of the most talented tight ends, and his numbers would look drastically different.

But because he’s in run first offense, that’s sole purpose is to control the game clock he’s not used nearly the same way Rivers is.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions

Part of that is because he’s incapable of doing the same things Rivers does.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Aug 28, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions

Ridiculous.

The Giants have always, and will always be a run first offense, if Rivers was our QB he’d be doing the same exact thing.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions

2008 W-L

Here is the W-L record of the Chargers opponents and Giants opponents in 2008. I counted Denver, Oakland, Kansas City, Indianapolis and Pittsburgh each only once for the Chargers.

Chargers’ Opponents W-L: 117-91

For the Giants, I counted their division opponents only once.

Giants’ Opponents W-L: 101-105-2

That’s a significant difference. So, you still want to talk about strength of schedule as to why Eli is better than Rivers?

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 25, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions

Nobody said strength of schedule.

We’re talking about defense here. A good defense may not finish with a plus .500 record. For example, the Redskins were TOP 5 defensively last year, but finished 7-9.

Regardless of that your argument is moot, you have to count divisional opponents twice because they play each other twice…that’s where the difference lies. If San Diego didn’t have the (once again) PLEASURE of playing Kansas City, Oakland, and Denver TWICE a year…there would be no argument. But they do, while New York gets thrown up against three top ten defenses TWICE a year.

So yes, I will still be using that as a fine example. You can’t honestly argue it has no bearing…that’s foolish. Eli plays better defenses. It’s a fact, it’s not a knock on Rivers, it’s just a fact.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 25, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions

Good point about defenses faced. That’s why I recommend looking at, oh let’s say, Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. Rivers was 2nd. Manning was 9th. Or if you prefer counting stats we can use Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement. Rivers was 3rd. Manning was 9th.

by Richard Wade on Aug 25, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

I don't understand your point.

If Manning played Kansas City instead of Philly twice a year, or played Denver instead of Washington twice a year, or Oakland instead of Dallas twice a year, do you think his stats would look the same? Put Rivers in the NFC East and do you think he puts up 4000 passing yards?

There’s no way of knowing. What’s known is that one division is FAR AND AWAY better defensively, and you would think that would lead to one QB having a better career…but it’s Manning who is the only one with the hardware.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 25, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Clearly you don't.

DVOA and DYAR adjust for the level of the defense and Rivers still comes out way ahead. It’s not very complicated.

by Richard Wade on Aug 26, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions

I'll try to translate

DVOA DYAR TAKE DEFENSE OUT of the equation. They adjust the numbers so it doesn’t matter. After that, Rivers is still FAR ahead in every category. It really isn’t that complicated. The Giants have had the better teams but the Chargers CLEARLY have the better QB.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 27, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions

How can you take defense out of the equation???

You can’t adjust numbers to take defense out of the equation when he got those numbers by playing that defense. That doesn’t make any sense at all.

QB A: plays two games against Philly, Dallas, and Washington.

QB: B: Plays two games against Kansas City, Oakland, and Denver.

The numbers he accumulated will always be against those defenses…how can you possibly adjust for what they might have done against another defense?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 6:52 AM PDT up reply actions

What it does

is makes an adjustment for the defense. In DVOA and DVOR, Eli Manning’s ratings are adjusted to reflect that he has played tougher defenses, while Philip Rivers’s ratings are adjusted to reflect that he has played against weaker defenses. Once the adjustments are made, Rivers’s rating is still higher than Eli’s. That’s what it means.

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 28, 2009 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions

You seem to like numbers

Since we are trying to objectively measure QB skill here rather than subjectively which is what you seem to think. Let’s just for the sake of argument look at the best objective QB rating metric with have, conveniently called “QB Rating”

Eli Career 76.1
Ben 89.4
Rivers Career 92.9

Even if your defense argument were true, I’m pretty sure that’s a wide enough gap to say at least according to QB Rating Rivers is undeniably the better QB.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 27, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions

You keep telling yourself that buddy.

At the beginning of the 2007 Season these were some interesting QB Ratings.

Marc Bulger Career 92.26
Daunte Culpepper Career 91.26
John Elway career 79.86
Terry Bradshaw career 70.92

I guess Marc Bulger and Daunte Culpepper are undeniably better QB’s than John Elway and Terry Bradshaw?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 7:11 AM PDT up reply actions

You’re comparing across different eras. The game has changed.

by Richard Wade on Aug 28, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions

ELway won a Super Bowl

In ’99

Not exactly ancient history.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions

but a lot has changed

case in point:

1999: 4 teams scored more than 400 points
2008: 9 teams scored more than 400 points

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions

2008

A team with a #1 Defense and a quarterback that threw only 17 TDs in the regular season won the Super Bowl.

High flying offenses might put asses in the stands, but you still need a game manager at QB to win it all. Drew Brees threw for 5000 yards, Tom Brady threw for 50 TDs, and yet neither one of them won it all.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions

You're making everyone else's point

Rivers is a better QB and Eli won the Super Bowl by “managing the game” and not losing it for the Giants’ defense.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

And how does Manning being a better game manager...

Make Rivers a better QB?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions

because the Giants don’t….CAN’T trust him to throw the ball more than 25 times a game without losing the game. That makes him not as good as the QB who can still win when he has to throw on every down.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

And yet...

He hasn’t won?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions

He has yet to be on a team with as strong of a defense and rushing attack, not to mention health, as the one Eli rode to the SB.

Manning’s 23-to-20 Int-to-TD ration meant that he wasn’t good enough to lead them to the championship, just good enough to not screw up what the defense and running game were doing.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Ok so...

By your logic I guess we should say Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Rivers? That Jim McMahon was a better QB then Rivers? The Giants won the SB as a team and no one the whole season held the Pats offense to 2 Td’s. The D won that game for the Giants end of story and yes some miraculous things happened but to say Eli is better than Rivers just isn’t really right in my opinion. What happened when he lost Plax? Busty McBusterson all over again if they had not won the SB Giants fans would be rioting until Eli was off the team, just like how it was in 08 that same season before they won it. The closest thing Rivers has to a true No. 1 WR is VJ and even though I love him he’s not the same presence as Plax (yet) and Rivers still puts up elite numbers. Sorry but you knew this was coming talking this crap on a Chargers site.

by Harsh_619 on Aug 25, 2009 4:03 PM PDT reply actions

That came off a little hot headed

I should have said “saying this stuff” rather than “talking this crap”, I didn’t think you were trying to be offensive. I just get a little crazy when it comes to my Chargers, DON’T TALK BAD ABOUT MY CHARGERS! Haha just kidding (but seriously don’t talk bad about my Chargers).

by Harsh_619 on Aug 26, 2009 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions

No one is talking crap.

Just adding another perspective to this one sided argument. You shouldn’t ask questions if all you want is seals blindly clapping as answers.

I believe I’ve mentioned twice now how I respect what Rivers has done, but I’m just saying Eli is better.

He has done more with his career, in a MUCH tougher division.

And Trent Dilfer never won a Super Bowl MVP…nor did he take his team to the playoffs 4 years in a row, nor did he ever throw for 20+ TD’s and 3200+ yards in consecutive seasons.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 26, 2009 5:48 AM PDT up reply actions

Adding a perspective that is without much merit.

by Richard Wade on Aug 26, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions

Wow Richard...

I hope you don’t treat all your guests with this level of respect, we wouldn’t want your blog to get (god forbid) too many outside perspectives.

I apologize that I’m not too keen on stats like DVOA or DYOR, but than again I’ve honestly never been a big stat guy…mainly because if we went by say…QB rating alone to determine a QB’s effectiveness, Daunte Cullpepper (89) would be one of the top ten greatest QB’s of all time, while John Elway wouldn’t even crack the top 50 (79)…I think we can both agree that couldn’t be farther from the truth.

What I fail to comprehend is why is it that I was able to have a meaningful discussion with a couple of everyday Charger fans on their home blog, without personal attack, until the editor got involved?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 26, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions

have a meaningful discussion with a couple of everyday Charger fans on their home blog

sometimes it requires a lot of patience.

Richard is very informed, and arguments backed up by stats are harder to refute than those backed up by opinions. Although I think Rivers is better than Eli, I do agree with you that stats are overrated in football. FO does the best job of compensating, but there are just too many circumstances that aren’t reflected in the stat book (e.g. intentionally throwing the ball away counts as a pass attempt and an incomplete pass — I would think Rivers’, who throws at his linemen’s feet at least once per game, would have a much higher rating if this was differentiated).

by Leukadian on Aug 26, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions

Exactly.

And I understand that a lot of people live and die with the stat book, I’m just not one of them. If you look at most my posts I do use statistics, but I only use them to help my opinion, not to formulate one.

What I really wanna know is who do you pull for when the Chargers play the Broncos?
That must be a soap opera.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 26, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions

I root for the Broncos

I like the Chargers, and Rivers in particular, but I grew up orange and blue. Being a young teen when Elway was drafted, I’d started actually watching the games just a couple of years prior, I doubt I’ll ever relinquish the fandom created by growing up in Colorado through those years. I wish it were different for my kids’ sakes, but San Diego just doesn’t have the same football fever (although it has gotten better in the past few years).

by Leukadian on Aug 26, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, stick with your first love!

I live in Atlanta, but I’ll always be a Steelers fan first. And, I still have trouble with the Braves, which can cause some stress with the in-laws, but oh well. :)

For ideas on statistical analyses, email me at wolfpacksteelersfan@gmail.com.

by WolfpackSteelersFan on Aug 27, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions

Where’s the personal attack?

by Richard Wade on Aug 28, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Well played Richard.

Probably just better to pretend that post never happened. Wouldn’t want to appear anything less than in control in front of your homies now would we?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions

Please don't taunt Richard

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions

Well...since you said please...

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions

Gotcha

I get what your saying and I respect your take on this whole debate. I just thought you were saying if one guy has a ring and the other doesn’t, that automatically makes the guy with the ring a better quarterback, which I’d rather be severely beaten then admit Trent Dilfer or Jim McMahon was a better quarterback than Rivers.

by Harsh_619 on Aug 26, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions

Never would I say that...

Although I might imply Jim McMahon has better moves on the dance floor…

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 26, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Eli Manning deserved the Super Bowl MVP

about as much as I deserve the Congressional Medal of Honor.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 27, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions

So...

Let’s pretend Rivers actually does win a Conference Championship game and makes it to a Super Bowl.

He throws for over 150 yards and 2 TD’s in the fourth quarter, including the game winning score with less than a minute left after driving his team 87 yards down the field.

He doesn’t deserve the MVP?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions

Now you want to say it isn't a team game?

If it wasn’t for the Giants defense he wouldn’t have been in ANY situation to win the game. If it wasn’t for his receivers making great catches from his wounded duck passes, it wouldn’t have been close. You can’t have it both ways. You’re right it’s a team game. That’s why the Giants won the SB. If it were a QB game, they wouldn’t have even come close. Let’s put it this way.

Let’s assume that we have two team comprised of league average players. Every player at every position is the same except the QB. One team has Eli and one team has Rivers. Again, besides those two players the teams are identical and play the identical schedules. Which team wins more games? That answer is painfully obvious.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 28, 2009 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions

Probably the team that has the guy...

With more wins.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions

Face it.

Some guys are winners (John Elway) and some guys are losers (Dan Marino).

I’m not saying Phillip Rivers is going to be the next Dan Marino, but I am saying he’s on pace.

The same way Eli is on pace to have an Elway type career (actually ahead of schedule as far as championships go).

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions

You're hopeless

I give up.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 28, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions

Do you actually believe that? There’s no way a thinking person believes that…

by Richard Wade on Aug 28, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions

Let me guess...

Not a personal attack?

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions

We'll see what happens when rivers and eli meet on the field

Looking forward to the game. we will see who wins head to head. We didn’t do well on the east coast last year. But, our defense should be better this year. so, I think we can hang with the giants. I will love to see eli get planted often on his butt by merriman, phillips and hopefully larry english. Maybe he can throw a few interceptions for good measure since our secondary is lookin good in the pre-season. Yeah, you better hope you can run the ball, cause if not, your in deep doo doo. I won’t say it’s now or never, but it ain’t going to get much better than this.

by irishlad on Aug 25, 2009 11:50 PM PDT reply actions

We better hope we can run the ball????

I ain’t worried about that brother, YOU better hope you can run the ball…one of our teams had two 1000 yard rushers last year, and one of our teams was ranked 20th…tell me who should be worried about that.

Past that, I totally agree with your statement, lets see how it plays out!

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 26, 2009 5:49 AM PDT up reply actions

I agree with tito.

Eli is much better than Phil at throwing interceptions.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 27, 2009 4:02 PM PDT reply actions

Also much better...

At winning Championship games.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions

Well Phil has never played in a super bowl. So there is no basis for comparison.

And don’t bother to say that proves that eli is a better QB because we’ve already been over that poor argument.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 28, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions

But Rivers has been in a Conference Championship Game...

Against the same Patriots that Eli managed to beat….hmm….

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions

Yeah with LT and Gates not in the game

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 28, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions

Oh that's right, I forgot Michael Turn sucks...

and Shockey didn’t miss the entire 2007 playoffs.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Turner*

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 28, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions

1) Kevin Boss is better than Shockey. That’s why Shockey was traded away and that’s why the offense worked better without him in 2007.

2) Eli Manning did not have to face the Patriots while playing with a torn ACL.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions

John...

Give me a break.
Now you’re just being completely one sided in this.

Eli loses his perennial Pro Bowl tight end for the entire 2007 playoffs, and you’re going to say his backup, who was a rookie at the time and never started a game in his young career is better? Come on, that’s just ridiculous.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions

No it's not

Shockey (14 games)
57 rec, 619 yards, 3 TD
PER GAME: 4 rec, 44 yards, 0.2 TDs

Boss (2 games)
9 rec, 118 yards, 2 TD
PER GAME: 4.5 rec, 59 yards, 1 TD

You can’t play the “Boss is just a rookie and never started a game!” card after the guy has already come in and proven he’s better than Shockey. If he hadn’t, Shockey would still be in NJ.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Shockey got traded...

Because of his mouth. Not because of his skills.

At the time of the injury, Shockey was a better tight end. There’s absolutely no questions about it.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions

This is what happens when you start with your conclusion and work backwards.

by Richard Wade on Aug 28, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions

Eli still has much to prove

Only in New York is Eli a top 5 NFL QB.

I think only a Giants fan would put E.Manning on par with Rivers — I’d expect almost everyone else to place Rivers’ skills above Eli’s. Eli has never really proven that he can consistently perform or carry his team (which is where any comparison to Elway really breaks down), and his Super Bowl win was the luckiest in history. He needs to have a really good year this season to get the respect tito thinks he deserves.

In contrast, Rivers inarguably had a pro-bowl year last season. He solidifies his position as a top 5 NFL QB with a respectable and consistent performance this season .

by Leukadian on Aug 29, 2009 8:53 AM PDT reply actions

How on Earth...

Is four consecutive seasons with 20+ TDs and 3200+ Yards considered anything other than consistent?
How is taking your team to the playoffs every year since becoming a starter anything other than consistent?
How is 12 fourth quarter comebacks in that time frame anything other than consistent?

Only those who are uninformed “Eli haters” will call his Super Bowl win “the luckiest in history”.

He went into Tampa Bay, against one of the better defenses in the league, never put the ball in harms way, and beat them.
He went into, what everyone at the time was calling a much better Dallas team, and executed a brilliant drive with less than a minute left in the first half to gave them the momentum needed to get the win.
He went into Green Bay, against what everyone was calling a much better Packers team, and showed Brett Favre exactly how to throw ball in -9 degree weather by putting his team in field goal position not once, not twice, but three times to get them the win.

He than went on to do something that only Joe Montana can also say he did by throwing for over 150 yards and 2 go ahead touchdowns in the fourth quarter against what some will call the greatest team in NFL history…including one with 30 seconds left to win the game.

Only an uninformed homer would call that lucky, everyone else will remember it as the greatest Super Bowl ever. Eli has nothing to prove, if he keeps up this pace of making it to the playoffs every year, putting up 20+ TDs and 3200 plus yards every year, consistently carrying his team in the fourth quarter to come back and win games every year, he’ll be a lock for the hall of fame.

However, Rivers on the other hand is unproven.
It’s really amazing to me how you could even think to consider Rivers more proven than Eli considering he has lost in every Conference Champioship game he’s been in.
If Eli gets to another Super Bowl, I know he’ll be ready, I know he’ll have the balls to get it done when the odds are stacked against him…because he’s proven he can do that. Rivers on the other hand, has never made it that far. Will he vomit in the huddle with the game on the line (Donavan McNabb) will he have a QB rating of less than 30 (Ben Rothelisburger) or will he step up to the plate, and do everything he needs to do to win the game, like Eli.

Because that is what the NFL is all about…not Pro Bowls and QB rating.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 29, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Billy Volek is better than Eli Manning

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 29, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Amazing...

The things that will come out of a persons mouth when they run out of viable arguments.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 30, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions

The truth hurts, I know.

;(

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 30, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Here's the flaw in your argument

Trent Dilfer is not better than Philip Rivers.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions

But Eli Manning is.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions

How is Eli different from Dilfer? They both managed games, and won Super Bowls for teams that preferred to run and play defense.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions

MVP.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions

MVP award is as meaningless as a All Star game appearance

Every position on the Giants performed better than Eli. The Defense, the Oline, the WRers, you name it. It’s just the status quo that the QB or whatever other salient position wins the award regardless of what really happened.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 31, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions

This from the guy...

Who considers Billy Volek a better QB than a Pro Bowl, Super Bowl MVP Award Winning, Perennial Playoff Quarterback…yea, you’re opinion sure does hold a lot of water.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions

and now we're going in circles

If Volek can’t be a better QB because he doesn’t have the stats, then why are Philip’s stats meaningless?

tito: because he hasn’t won a Super Bowl

John: a lot of crappy quarterbacks have won Super Bowls, that doesn’t make them John Elway and that doesn’t make them better than the guys that didn’t win. The team wins, not the QB.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions

This from a guy

Who thinks his subjective opinion of “getting it done” and his team winning the SuperBowl means more than objective analysis when trying to compare individuals in a team sport.

Not trying to be rude I suggest you visit this website before trying to make an argument again. Because honestly your subjective opinion really doesn’t “hold a lot of water”.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 31, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Honestly...

After that Volek comment, I can’t take anything you say even halfway serious.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions

Specifically I mean the fallacy of division

The fallacy of Division is committed when a person infers that what is true of a whole must also be true of its constituents and justification for that inference is not provided.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 31, 2009 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Volek’s passer rating is higher.

"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock

by John Gennaro on Aug 31, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions

You toss around stats, then say they don’t matter. Rivers has been better than Eli statistically every year he’s started, including wins — he won more regular season games than Eli the year the Giants won the Super Bowl. Statistically, Rivers has improved each year while Eli has treaded water. The AFC playoffs are much tougher than the NFC’s, and it has taken very tough teams to knock the Chargers out of the playoffs (Pats twice, Steelers once). The Giants brought it one year. For instance, last year Eli lost in the first round of the playoffs to a 9-6 Eagle team at home, while Rivers beat a 12-4 Colts team on the road.

Stats aside, Eli does not inspire confidence in me when I watch him play. Rivers does. Either of those perceptions could change this year, as they could every year.

by Leukadian on Aug 29, 2009 6:57 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

Well fortunately for us Giant fans...

The outcome of the season is not decided by who inspires confidence in you.

Call the AFC Playoffs more difficult if you want, but the same Patriots team that defeated Phillip Rivers and his Chargers, lost only two weeks later to Eli Manning and his Giants.

Good luck this season, hopefully Rivers can break out of this Conference Championship funk and meet Eli in the bowl so we can have something really interesting to talk about.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 30, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions

But apparenlty the better QB is decided by who inspires confidence in YOU

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 30, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions

And by the way that Patriots team that beat us

LT and Antonio Gates did not play in the game and Phillip Rivers had a torn ACL in one knee and a sprained MCL in the other.

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Aug 30, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Yes I already read that the first time you posted it...

I believe Michael Turner was LT’s backup in ‘07, hardly an incapable backup.
And Jeremy Shockey missed the entire ’07 playoffs so what’s your point?

Eli manning played with a separated shoulder throughout most that entire regular season, so I don’t want to hear about injuries…some guys just get it done, and some guys just fall short. Excuses are always something you’ll hear from perennial losers, but rarely are they whispered in the locker room of a Champion.

"We'll show up tomorrow and do the same thing we try to do every day, Kick Pedroia's ass in cribbage and try and win a baseball game."

by tito (eight and oh) on Aug 31, 2009 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions

TOUCHE....

This is a great conversation,all of you guys have made excellent points.And I guess I’m not the only one who thinks Richard is rude either..lol.But aside from that this one has been a good one to read,also I think Philip is better than Eli,not because of all the stats,(although they do help you make an informed decision) but because I think Philip is a much more handsome fella.. :-)…And does anyone notice that coastalbronco is a Charger fan masquerading around as a bronco fan,seriously dude make up your mind.I’ve seen you post more comments at BFTB than on MHR ,matter of fact I don’t recall ever seeing a post from you whatsoever at the MHR. Ha,Undercover Bolt Lover….I’m loving it….

NEVER MISS A GAME,WHETHER BY BEING THERE OR WATCHING AT HOME,FO SHO!!!

by Gorditoe1 on Aug 31, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions

You don't know how badly I was hoping for a Chargers/Giants Super Bowl

I hope this doesn’t sound harsher than it’s intended, but you really misunderstand the SD fan if you think you can ever convince one that Eli is better than Rivers. Too much bad blood there.

by Leukadian on Sep 1, 2009 4:17 AM PDT up reply actions