San Diego Chargers Training Camp Opens
by John Gennaro on Jul 26, 2009 12:36 PM PDT
in San Diego Chargers Training Camp/Preseason
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PrintWOOHOO! Football is back, folks. Training camp is here and we'll have news and battles and all sorts of good stuff coming out every day to help us deal with the excitement. The Chargers 2009 rookie class, including the undrafted free agents the team signed, report today with the exception of Demetrius Byrd (injured), Kevin Ellison (unsigned) and Larry English (unsigned).
The rest of the team will report to the camp on Friday, giving the kids five full days to learn the playbook backwards and forwards. The purpose of having the rookies report early is to get them knowledgeable that they're not slowing down practice when the rest of the team arrives. Also, the team will use this time to continue to hammer life lessons into the rookies to help them adjust to their new lives as NFL players.
August 15th is the team's first preseason game, at home against the Seahawks.
Since there were more holes in the roster this offseason in comparison to the last couple of offseasons, I'm wondering if the Chargers may be due to have a rookie who impacts the team in a major way. They really haven't since Merriman and Kaeding. Part of the reason is because the team's history of hold outs with their first round draft picks, but another is because there simply wasn't room for the rookies to get on the field. That may not be the case this year.
There are best case scenarios for almost all of these players that involve seeing the field a whole bunch and helping to get the team over the hump. Vasquez can sure up the right side of the line, Johnson can provide a power running game and keep LT and Sproles healthy, English can create the most dynamic pass-rush in the NFL, Ellison can be a star at SS, Vaughn Martin could step in and be better than Igor, etc. So which is the most likely? Which rookie do you think has the best chance of making a major impact on the team in 2009?
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It's easy to say English and Vasquez
because they were our highest picks, and they seem most likely to get the most playing time. We’ll have to see how English adjusts to NFL competition, and how well Vasquez adjusts to run-blocking as well as pass-blocking. Though I would definitely be happy to see Philip take fewer sacks from the right side.
Love we shine like a burning star
We're falling from the sky tonight
by Zach (maestro876) on Jul 26, 2009 2:00 PM PDT reply actions
My picks
Would be like this:
1. English
2. Johnson
3. Ellison
4. Vasquez
I have this feeling that Ellison is going to be a gem of a player, just like English. I also think Gartrell’s power running style is much needed and will infuse life into the team’s running game.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jul 26, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually don't think that Johnson is going to get much playing time.
He’ll be running behind LT and Sproles. It’s easy to say “oh he can be a goal-line/short yardage back”, but in the past when we had Turner, LT was still on the field in most of those situations.
Love we shine like a burning star
We're falling from the sky tonight
by Zach (maestro876) on Jul 26, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
LT was a different player then
I know people are split over this, but it’s quite simple to me. We have proof from the last two years of these two facts:
1) When carrying the same load he has in the past, LaDainian Tomlinson’s body will break down towards the end of the season.
2) Darren Sproles is a great change-of-pace and 3rd down back, but when he is forced into the starter’s role he is not as effective.
Add that to the fact that dynamic kick and punt returners of the past have shown that an increased role in the offense can turn them into just adequate return guys, and I think Gartrell has to see the field. He’ll keep LT healthy, keep Sproles dynamic, provide a reasonable solution should LT get hurt and provide a power running game that was missing last season.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jul 26, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Hope so.
Love we shine like a burning star
We're falling from the sky tonight
by Zach (maestro876) on Jul 26, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't agree that Sproles cannot be an effective starter
Sproles has only had 10+ carries 4 times in his entire career (2 regular, 2 post-season). 3 of those games he had over 100 yards on the ground. The one he didn’t was against Pittsburg, and not many RBs would have a sucessful game against that defense. Even including the Pittsburg playoff game, in every game he’s had 10+ carries, his average is 4.96 YPC.
In 4 games: 72 carries, for 357 yards [4.96 avg] and 5 TD.
They had a Q&A in the UT with Norv Turner
Link. They asked him about Ellison:
The rookie the (veterans) talked about most was (strong safety) Kevin Ellison. They thought this guy was really smart and knew how to play.
“I don’t want to get ahead of ourselves. I like Kevin. There are some areas he’s going to be very good and some areas he has a lot of work to do. It’s going to be fun to see how he handles it.”
So his impact in 2009 probably won’t be too much outside of special teams or injuries. As for Vazquez though, I think his response to a question about Forney tells the story:
What will Kynan Forney bring that Mike Goff did not?
“I like Mike, and he had some real good games, but he had some games where he really struggled. I believe whoever is the right guard – and that is not yet decided – will bring a level of consistency and allow us to be more physical.”
Obviously you’re referring to (third-round pick) Louis Vasquez challenging Forney? What does he have to do? And when do we start seeing that battle?
“What you’re looking for in those interior people is the athleticism they have and the ability. I don’t have any doubt that when Vasquez has a chance to hit someone as hard as he can he’s going to be willing to hit them. But we’ve seen his athleticism, his movement, his intelligence, his instincts, and I’m really excited about what he showed us this spring.”
They didn’t ask about English, probably because the burning questions with him relate to contract issues and that’s not really Norv’s cup of tea. They also didn’t ask about Gartrell Johnson. Presumably because it’s not really important to ask about a guy who is 4th on the depth chart behind LT, Sproles and Hester. I still think it’s only about 50/50 that Johnson even makes the team. Thoughts of him making any valuable contributions in 2009 are fantasy at best, delusional at worst.
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
Oh, he did ask about the DE position (which concerns Martin)
Much like Ellison i tdoesn’t sound like he’s winning the camp battle there:
Who starts training camp at that left defensive end spot (vacated by Igor Olshansky)?
“(Jacques) Cesaire was put in as the starter on Day One, and he’s the starter, and (Ryon) Bingham is going to be allowed to compete for the job. Cesaire has been a very good football player. He was actually playing more plays than Igor was in the last month when we played our best. People look at that as we lost a player, but in the last month Jacques played more than the guy we lost. I think we’ve gotten better there. The combination of Jacques as we start and Bingham, and obviously we’ve got a young guy (fourth-round pick Vaughn Martin), and we want to find out what he’s capable of doing and get him cranking.”
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
By the way
Michael Turner – picked in the 5th round, pick 154
Darren Sproles – picked in the 4th round, pick 130
Gartrell Johnson – picked in the 4th round, pick 134
So….why won’t Gartrell make the team? Do the Chargers make a habit out of taking RBs in the 4th round and cutting them?
Hester said himself this year that he beefed up to play the FB role, but it has made him slower. He’s embracing being the starting FB and should no longer be considered a HB.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jul 27, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Hope Gartrell does ease LT' Load
I would love to see Gartrell take a little bit of the workload off of LT, hopefully he will. But I don’t see him as a sure fire contributor to this years team. You mentioned 4th round pick Sproles and 5th round pick Turner, but lets not forget last years 5th round pick Marcus Thomas. Not sure if Marcus is in camp with the Cowboys or looking for a job right now.
Gartrell had some big games at CSU and maybe he will be a quality NFL player, but I think it is a bigger “maybe” than most people do.
Marcus Thomas was pick 166 last year
And didn’t make the team. I don’t see THAT much difference there. There are already questions about his speed and nobody on the Chargers has had much to say about him. These aren’t signs in his favor, and, admittedly, are big knocks against him. So 50-50 seems right. Maybe 60-40.
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
*aren't big knocks against him
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
My point
Was that you’re stating one case for a RB that’s drafted that low to get cut and I’m stating three cases for RBs that were drafted that low and saw lots of times on the field.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jul 27, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
No
You stated 2 cases for RBs that did not see a lot of time on the field (20 carries for Turner, 18 for Sproles) and I’m not sure what you are counting as the 3rd (19 carries for Hester?).
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
Okay, I miscounted
but why would the team waste a 4th round pick on a player that they weren’t certain was going to make the team? It doesn’t jive with the team’s philosophy. Here’s all the 4th round picks since Butler/Smith took over personnel decisions:
2001: Carlos Polk
2002: Justin Peelle
2003: Matt Wilhelm
2004: Shaun Phillips
2005: Darren Sproles
2007: Scott Chandler
You’re also discounting the fact that our running game is missing a power back of any sort. Turner was a pick that they didn’t want to “bank” on, so they kept Chatman around to be the power back. Sproles was drafted as a returner, and was behind Turner. The situation with Gartrell is different from Turner and Sproles in the following ways:
1) A power back in needed in the running game and he’s the only true option.
2) Sproles is still a return man and an effective receiver. You can use Gartrell without taking anything away from Sproles.
3) The team worked out RBs before the draft. I know part of that was misdirection, but another part was them saying “We need another RB.” That has not changed.
I think Gartrell will get a chance in the preseason and the first couple of games to show what he has. If he falls on his face, he’s benched. If he’s a dynamic force that can lighten the load for the smaller RBs, he’ll see more opportunities.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jul 28, 2009 3:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I still have a gut feeling
based on how the Chargers have operated that Johnson has almost a 0 chance of making an impact on the 2009 team. I don’t think that means he’s a waste of a 4th round pick, just a pick that was more geared towards the future.
Remember, this thread started because you claimed the Johnson was the 2nd most likely rookie to make an impact in 2009. It just doesn’t make sense when you combine the Charger’s past minimal use of 3rd or 4th RBs. Their past minimal use of rookie RBs. Their two very high paid RBs. And, at the same time, the team has openly admitted that there is an open competition for the RG spot and you list Vazquez as the 4th most likely. I could even pile on and say that Ellison is more likely to make an impact for the team because he’ll play special teams than Johnson will in 2009.
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
"(Jacques) Cesaire was put in as the starter on Day One, and he’s the starter, and (Ryon) Bingham is going to be allowed to compete for the job. Cesaire has been a very good football player.
I’m glad to hear this; I was thinking this but read a lot of folks giving Bingham the nod.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Jul 27, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions
4th on the depth chart behind LT, Sproles and Hester. I still think it’s only about 50/50 that Johnson even makes the team. Thoughts of him making any valuable contributions in 2009 are fantasy at best, delusional at worst.
You’re just twisting the knife now. I know how I’ll get you back…
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jul 27, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not personal
But the idea that Johnson has a bigger role than Michael Bennett had last year just seems kind of out there to me, I understand the blogosphere watching college football highlights and dreamcasting a RB into a role on an NFL team, but realistically, he’s a rookie RB not drafted very high (what contribution did Turner and Sproles make in their rookie years?), and has had no one affiliated with the team mentioning his role or even confirming that he’s making the team. I wish him the best in his NFL career, but 2009 will not be his year to shine.
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
I think Johnson makes the team
Last year the team carried 5 backs – LT, Sproles, Hester, Bennett, Tolbert.
I think that Tolbert may give way for Johnson. You are right that the Chargers traditional don’t give a lot of carries to rookie HB’s. I can see Johnson making team and perhaps getting more touches next year.
The one thing in Johnson’s favor is that LT won’t get carries in preseason and I don’t imagine that Sproles will get many either. Johnson may get the bulk of the carries in preseason and that may indicate whether or not he factors into the team this year.
If they try to put him on Practice Squad he will get taken.
by Aussiecharger on Jul 27, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
But I'd love it if he did
and was able to make an impact. We could really use a back who can run over people.
Love we shine like a burning star
We're falling from the sky tonight
by Zach (maestro876) on Jul 26, 2009 2:15 PM PDT reply actions
I chose martin because
English and ellison aren’t signed yet. How effective they will be and how soon will depend on how much time they miss due to contract issues. I hope norv has brains enough to have gartrell do the “grunt” work to keep LT healthy. I picked martin because he is an un-known. It might take him awhile to “catch on” but I think he will help solidify the defensive front. I think he has the athletic ability, now it’s just a matter of him getting "up to speed’ as far as reading and reacting.
I keep wondering
If Tyronne Green is a good sleeper. I don’t think he is going to be a big impact player this year, but everything I read said he was an amazing athlete without much time in his position. I think English and Vasquez for this year; but believe Martin and Green might end up being great as they mature.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Jul 26, 2009 7:36 PM PDT reply actions
he is one guy
who we really didn’t hear anything about in OTAs. Of course, now that the players are wearing pads, we might hear more of him.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Jul 27, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't know that he makes the team
He may be a practice squad player, just because the offensive line is so set. How many lineman do you think they’ll carry? 7? 8?
McNeil
Dielman
Hardwick
Forney
Clary
Vasquez
Mruczkowski
Shelton
Forney or Vasquez plays backup G, Shelton plays backup T and Mruczkowski play backup everything. If I were Green, I’d be worried that Mruczkowski is listed as a Center on the Chargers roster.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Jul 27, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd think at least 8 O Line spots
Maybe even 9. They didn’t bring in any front line free agents or top draft picks at O line. And there is a question mark next to Marcus McNeil’s name for the first part of the season.
I think the only way we mitigate the risks at O Line is to add depth, I’d suspect that the guy (or guys) at the bottom of the list doesn’t dress out on Sunday.
I think is a kind of a good situation for the rookies at O Line. Aside from Center, and Left Guard, there really aren’t any declared starters. So the rookies and bench players are going to get plenty of reps. With a starter at a given spot it can be very challenging for these players just to get reps. At least these guys are going to have access.
Not to slight McNiel, healthy he is our starter at left tackle. But I expect him to loose reps to PUP or just to reduce the chance of re-injury.
by Trendsearcher on Jul 27, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
good point
a lot of what happens on OL depth will have to do with McNeill’s health. Hopefully we’ll know by the first pre-season game. The word during the summer was that McNeill was being held out for precautionary reasons but will be ready to go by camp. We’ll see if he is still working out on the side once the Vets hit camp later this week, and we’ll really see once the first pre-season game rolls around.
If I hear any “We’re keeping McNeill out as a precaution since it’s just camp/preseason”, I will be officially worried.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Jul 27, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
The question is 8 or 9
With 8, Green goes on the practice squad…unless he can unseat someone. We also have:
Corey Clark
Brandon Dombrowski
Chargers had 9 OL on the roster once they promote Corey Clark from the PS in November
It wouldn’t be unreasonable to think that they would go with 9. Especially because Green can’t go to the PS.
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
I'd say 9
We saw what happened with our OL last year. No way do I see us going with 8. Ten isn’t beyond the realm of possibility if one of the b/u’s is a good ST’er.
If the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will!!
Robert Hunter
by Buck Melanoma on Jul 27, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, they had 10 once Clark was promoted
McNeil
Dielman
Hardwick
Forney
Clary
Goff
Mruczkowski
Shelton
Newberry
Clark
Sorry about the confusion.
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
by Wonko on Jul 27, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've said this before (but apparently no one listens)
There is absolutely NO WAY that the Chargers can sneak Green onto the practice squad. There were a number of rumblings about other teams waiting to draft him that were upset when he went to the Chargers. Somebody will give him a roster spot.
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
If that's true
then I’d imagine they have to find some roster spot for him. I can’t see AJ spending a pick on a guy he knows other teams want, just to put him on the practice squad and watch another team snatch him up.
Love we shine like a burning star
We're falling from the sky tonight
by Zach (maestro876) on Jul 27, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
They’ll probably drop Clark to the practice squad first since he was already there and not stolen. Either Clark or Dombrowski doesn’t make the 53 man roster.
I'm betting 9 OL make the 53 man
McNeill
Dielman
Hartwick
Clary
Forney
Vasquez
Mooch
Shelton
Dombrowski
Outside looking in:
Green
Clark
by Stephen (shaynes41) on Jul 27, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd guess
Mruczkowski and Clark don’t make roster.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Jul 27, 2009 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions
They'll probably keep Mruczkowski because of his versatility.
He can play both guards and center, and he’s been with the team a couple years so he’s familiar with the players, the coaches, and the system.
Love we shine like a burning star
We're falling from the sky tonight
by Zach (maestro876) on Jul 27, 2009 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions
When we get to 9 or 10
We will have to make some hard choices at the other positions. Do we take those spots from receivers, DBs, line backers?
I think the running backs quarterbacks and D line are all locked in on head count.
Were do we compromise?
Receivers look likely to me. Buster’s need for a good camp just ratcheted up a notch.
by Trendsearcher on Jul 27, 2009 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions
They could start
By not carrying 2 fullbacks like they always do.
Memo to baseball managers: You manufacture runs by NOT making outs, not by making them on purpose.
I agree
Who else is our backup center? Green may be able to play some center in time, but he’s had very few reps at that spot in college. With Newberry gone, that leaves it up to Mruc.
If the thunder don't get ya then the lightning will!!
Robert Hunter
by Buck Melanoma on Jul 28, 2009 7:00 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Could Be
But Wonko’s right about about not being able to sneak green onto the PS; if he shows up well in camp he becomes the backup center. Mruczkowski does not have starter potential, I think he is feeling that heat and that’s why he is in camp early. I’m guessing maybe Tolbert ends up gonzo too.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Jul 28, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Saving McNeil
I wouldn’t stress if they don’t suit him for any of the pre-season games…
I would stress if he doesn’t clear PUP, and is not taking reps at practice.
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