What does Norv Turner need to do in 2009 to be back in 2010?
by Steve (Grey Suit) on May 28, 2009 7:00 AM PDT
38 comments
A while back I wrote a post about which Chargers will become free agents after the 2009 season, one Charger I left off the list was Norv Turner. Over the past two seasons Norv’s head coaching ability has come into question by fans, the media and even his own players, but what can not be questioned is his success on the field. In his two seasons as head coach of the San Diego Chargers ,Turner has won 3 playoff games, 2 AFC West titles and has appeared in 1 AFC championship game. Although Turner's contract does not technically expire until after the 2010 season, the 2009 season will be the make or break year for Turner since it is rather uncommon for teams to allow a head coach to go into the final season of his contract as a "lame duck".
The Chargers will have to make a decision about Turner's future at the end of the '09 season. Assuming that Shawne Merriman, Antonio Gates and LT remain healthy this season, what do you think the team needs to accomplish to get Norv an extension as the head coach of the San Diego Chargers?
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I would have voted for
“win at least one playoff game” if that had been an option. But since I think the Chargers are going to win the AFC west and have a real good chance at a 1st round bye, that pretty much equals getting to the AFC Championship.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on May 28, 2009 8:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it would be really hard
to fire a coach who has won his division every year he has been at the helm.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on May 28, 2009 8:49 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
but our division has sucked…
and our record has gotten worse every year under Turner.
I think it is all about winning playoff games (which Norv has done).
by Stephen (shaynes41) on May 28, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
At this point I think Norv has done everything that we were told he would.
Has he gotten out to bad starts? Absolutely. But in two years he has already matched the amount of playoff appearances we got under Marty (two) and won more playoff games (3 to zero). Did we hire the next Bill Belichick? Probably not. Have we seen an improvement in his skills over these two years? Yes.
I am of the mindset that a coach needs experience before he can be good. Usually that means bad experience. Even Belichick failed in Cleveland before turning New England around. Norv seems to be getting better at this head coaching thing with the more experience he gets (I saw a ton of improvement in him in the 2007 playoffs alone) and believe it would be wise to sign him to a long-term deal after this season.
With that being said, I voted “win the AFC West” because the other teams are so poor. If we don’t win the AFC West that may be bad enough for anyone to lose their job.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John (obviousman) on May 28, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Norv needs to be more of a HC....
than a coordinator. This team has all the talent, but can fall off on motivation and discipline. What will help Norv be able to do those things is having Chudz up in the booth! I don’t expect Norv to turn into Marty or anything and get into players’ faces, but to just get more involved w/ the players and set them aside when they screw up.
Norv will not change much from what we’ve already seen so the team and the fans need to just get used to it. I may be contradicting myself in saying that, but adding Chudz as Asst. HC should mean something. When Norv added him, he said that he did it to focus more on the HC aspects and to take some weight off his back. We’ll see what comes of it!
What I also want to see from Norv is more creativity in play calling. We have so many versatile players to work w/ and the talent to get it done…why not!?
I voted for “win AFC West” because the team is slowly starting to get used to Norv’s ways and all we needed was the players to buy into his system in order for this train to run fullforce.
by Hellsbells51 on May 28, 2009 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Some notes
I used to talk about this constantly. There were a lot of players that said Holmgren screwed up his first few years in Seattle by trying to do too much. He was the HC, GM and called the offensive plays. Players coming out of there said that he had no time to be in offensive meetings and therefore was never on the same page as the offense, which limited his creativity greatly. I think the same thing has happened with Norv (and also with Wade out in Dallas).
I think even the media picked up on it. Last year there was a lot of talk about Norv handing over play-calling to focus on being a head coach and I believe his response is “I’d be glad to do it when I find someone I’m comfortable in doing that with.” I think that was kindof a low-blow to Clarence Shelmon, the Chargers OC, but I guess he’s known all along that he wasn’t picked to be the OC to call plays.
The re-hiring of Chud could mean that Norv is giving up some or all of the playcalling, but Chud didn’t have great success as the OC in Cleveland last year with all those weapons so maybe not. Don’t forget that Chud is credited with getting Gates to where he was and he may have been brought in to just take the reins of the big TE over. Or he may have been hired to do both. There’s no telling. However, if he takes over the playcalling I think it would be good for this team. Norv could offer some insight and guidance, as one of the best offensive coordinators in the history of the NFL, while honing the craft of motivating his players. I think it would equal more success and creativity than we’ve had in the last two years on offense.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John (obviousman) on May 28, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Beat the Raiders at least once
I know it doesn’t sound like a very lofty goal, and they’ve been achieving my goal remarkably well for the last decade. There is just so much bag with the Raiders and the hoodlum fans that root for the Raiders, my main goal for the team every season starts right there. Any added success is gravy!
If they sweep the Raiders I consider it very successful season.
by Trendsearcher on May 28, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With that logic
I think Mike Riley could’ve kept his job.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John (obviousman) on May 28, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I know some fans want to win the whole thing every year
I’m just happy with beating the Raiders.
by Trendsearcher on May 28, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Faster Start
I agree with Chud comment and I think he will take over as OC if the Chargers stumble out of the gate again with Rivera taking over as HC. Poor starts are a sign of bad coaching and not preparing the team for the year. 8-8 with supposedly the best roster in the NFL isn’t exactly overwhelming. If the Chargers begin with 4 losses in the first seven games, he needs to go. Norv as OC is becoming dated as well and clearly he brings little to nothing as anything else usually associated with the HC.
At least Al Davis isn't running my team's drafts.
by bringbackbuddytrees on May 28, 2009 11:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Were they really the best roster in the NFL
without Merriman?
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John (obviousman) on May 28, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on May 28, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think results is enough
Marty got fired after 14-2. So by the ‘results only matter’ idea he should have been rehired by someone else. The fact is that he was not a modern coach. Motivation and player management AND information management.
I would let Norv work out his contract or give him to somebody else (he’s a good OC) and let Ron Rivera take over. He’s about player management.
I think in the NFL today a motivated Defense wins. And Ron can motivate defenses.
Ron as HC, a information management guy like Norv as OC and the chargers will crush anybody.
by not humble enough on May 28, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Results aren’t enough? Marty could’ve gotten another job but chose to retire because he was as old as my grandfather. He was a damn fine coach who panicked regularly in the playoffs and would’ve been retired by now anyways. We removed the “is he going to retire?” murmurs, got a damn fine coach who has his team play better in the playoffs and you want to send him packing for someone unproven?
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John (obviousman) on May 28, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the tricky thing about Norv
is that his results are a bit of a mixed bag. Slow starts mixed with declining record mixed with really good playoff success. almost the exact opposite of Marty.
I think any of us would take playoff success over regular season success, but at the same time last year worries me. The slow start combined with a little less luck and we’re not even in the playoffs. I hope Norv is learning, I think he is growing into the HC role. But you never know. Marty never learned to win playoff games, maybe Norv will never learn how to get his team ready week in and week out. I know there were injuries and a DC change midseason, but a team that is good enough to beat the Colts in a playoff game and almost beat the Steelers in Pittsburgh in the regular season should have done better than 8-8 (even better than 9-7) and that falls on Norv.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on May 28, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
I think he is getting better. I think Merriman’s injury screwed up a lot of things on the defensive side and LT’s injury screwed up a lot on the offensive side. Also, the schedule wasn’t great. Look at the teams we lost to:
Denver (8-8)
Miami (11-5)
Buffalo (7-9)
New Orleans (8-8)
Pittsburgh (12-4)
Indianapolis (12-4)
Atlanta (11-5)
The team probably should’ve won 10 games instead of 8, but as I said….I think Norv is getting better and I think Cottrell’s decline as a defensive coordinator was as shocking to Turner as it was to the fans. Considering the complete and total lack of a pass rush, 8-8 sounds about right.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John (obviousman) on May 28, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also, it’s worth noting that they did win nine games, but Hochuli ripped one of them away and gave it to Denver.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on May 28, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm also inclined to let Norv off the hook for the slow start last year
In addition to a banged up LDT all year, the OL was decimated in the first 4 or 5 games. It will be interesting to see how it pans out this year. Will LDT start strong (he’s historically a slow starter, and that could be what’s affecting the rest of the team as much as Norv — maybe he should play a preseason game or two to get up to speed)? Will the OL bounce back from rehab over the summer? Does Merriman (and Castillo) return to form, and do the defensive changes gel? If all of these are “yes” and the Chargers still start slow, then maybe the finger starts to point at Norv.
Regarding the motivation angle, any coach that can keep a 4-8 team believing in themselves long enough to make the playoffs and beat the Colts in the first round isn’t suspect in my book. Also, shifting to Rivera midstream took some cajones and paid off big time — I’m not sure if that was entirely Norv’s decision, but either way he certainly made it work.
If Norv wins another playoff game he garners the best playoff record of any Charger coach ever. That should be good enough for at least one more season at the helm.
I’m not convinced the Chargers win the AFC West this year. Yes, I’m a (possibly delusional) homer, but especially with such low expectations, I think Denver may have a few surprises in store for the division this year. I’m not saying it’s likely Denver finishes higher than the Chargers, but I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility.
by CoastalBronco on May 28, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I haven't given up on you yet CoastalBronco....
You’ll be a Chargers fan one day if I have anything to say about it.
Rec’d
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John (obviousman) on May 28, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Less luck?
The slow start combined with a little less luck and we’re not even in the playoffs.
From this statement, it sounds as if you think the Chargers were lucky during this past season? I think actually the opposite is true. They had NO luck in at least four games I can think of….the opener v. Carolina with the last second catch, the Hochuli call in Denver, in London against the Saints (all the PI penalties against and not for) and against Pitt the first time. I think luck evened out a little bit later during the season (against KC both times for example), and put the Chargers close to where they should have been all along…atop the Division and in the playoffs. Ideally, they should have been 10-8, but luck held them back to 8-8.
Do or do not. There is no try.
by Clip Show on May 28, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lucky the broncos lost all those games to close out the season
lucky to recover that onside kick at KC
we were a hair’s breadth away from missing the playoffs.
by Stephen (shaynes41) on May 28, 2009 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luck
I just prefer to think the luck evened out. If the Chargers would have won the first Bronco game (like they should have) that alone would have been a two game swing, so the Broncos losing at the end was a way of poetic justice. As it turned out, it all worked out in the end.
Do or do not. There is no try.
by Clip Show on May 28, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see what you're saying
and I think we have a different judgement on Marty. And you make a good point below that the chargers lost against good teams. But there is data and theory. If you make decisions only on theory you live in a fantasy world and if you make decisions on data you are being unethical (econometric training) because you can massage the data to give you any conclusion you want. Norv is not a good head coach. The players aren’t motivated. LT has to become a coach (telling his teammates to play their all) and AJ has to become a coach ala “these are professionals- they are expected to act like professionals”. That’s not their jobs. It’s a drag on the team to think: ‘we keep carrying the water for this coach who’s all brain and no balls, and he gets the credit’. So the question returns to: Who is the best Head Coach for the chargers. I think the answer is Ron Rivera. But I could be wrong. ahhhhh advantages to no responsiblity
by not humble enough on May 28, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Marty
Aside from all the drama after John Buttler passed, it seemed to me that there was something else going on with Marty. In that last year his speech was slightly slurred, and his quips and insights didn’t come as fast and complete as in years past. Anyone else notice that?
I don’t know if I was imagining this, or if that was just the simple effects of time. But those things could also be caused by health issues. NFL head coach has got to be one of the most demanding and highest stress jobs on the planet. If there was a health situation like that, I can only imagine Marty would need / want to clear out ASAP. It is definitely a private matter for Marty now, but I wonder if that could have had a part in the change.
by Trendsearcher on May 28, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto
I think the team was worried about it. Then when Marty demanded that his (then unproven) son be brought in as the Defensive Coordinator they realized he was throwing a party and not trying to do what was best for the team.
I like Marty and appreciate what he did for the Chargers, but it was time to go. I would’ve given him one more year to try and have some playoff success, but he wouldn’t do it without his son.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John (obviousman) on May 28, 2009 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Belichick's Record
Let’s compare Norv with Bill Belichick’s first 3 years in NE.
Here is Bill Belichick’s record at NE for the first 3 years:
Year W L
2000 5 11 No Playoffs
2001 11 5 Won SB (3 playoff wins)
2002 9 7 No Playoffs
Here Is Norv’s first 2 years with SD:
Year W L
2007 11 5 Made Playoffs (2 wins, 1 loss-to NE in AFC Championship game)
2008 8 8 Made Playoffs (1 win, 1 loss to Pittsburgh in Division Round)
For Norv that is 2 AFC West Championships in 2 years. 3 playoff wins and 2 losses. One loss to a team that was 17-0 at the time and the other to the eventual SB Champion. All while having numerous injuries to key players. His December record with the Bolts is 9-0. That is getting it done when it matters.
Granted in 2001 NE became unexpected SB champions with a new unknown QB named Tom Brady. However in 2000 & 2002 they did not make the playoffs. Prior to 2000 he had only one winning season in Cleveland.
Now I am not putting Norv on Belichick’s level yet, I am just pointing to the fact that Norv has made the playoffs and won in the playoffs in his first 2 season’s and has a perfect record in the month that matters most in the regular season.
2009 will be a very telling year. Alot depend on if the team stays healthy. The division foes are in turmoil and we have a deeper roster than last year. We should EXPECT Norv to not get off to a slow start and make a deep playoff run. If that happens he deserves to see this through and get an extension. But so far other than slow starts to the seasons he has done nothing to not warrant an extension.
by PowderBlues on May 28, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I take back my judgemental words above (if you'll let me)
I take back my judgemental words above (if you’ll let me)
I am acting in a lame way
by not humble enough on May 28, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
great points, rec'd
especially the point that the playoff losses were to very good, peaking teams.
by CoastalBronco on May 28, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the comparison between Belichick's first 3 seasons and Turner's first 2 is misleading.
I think it is misleading for a couple of reasons. First, what kind of team did each inherit. Belichick inherited an 8-8 team
by Calcio365 on May 29, 2009 5:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oooo. Accidently hit post... Continuing my post here:
Belichick inherited an 8-8 team whereas Turner inherited a 14-2 team. Now, to me, that shows a difference in talent level. With the talent the Charger’s have, they ought to be between 12-4 and 14-2 just about every season. They have arguably the top tight end, a top running back, two solid receivers, solid corners, the best olb in the league, arguably the best NT in the league, and a very solid ol. I’d have to look through the roster for the Patriots in 99’ and 2000 to see what kind of team Belichick inherited, but if I were to guess, I would say it wasn’t quite as stacked as the Charger’s.
Now with the talent of the Chargers in mind, what has Turner done with that? Their record continues to drop every season. I understand the injuries on the D last season and that hurt the Chargers a lot. Was it enough to excuse an 8-8 season? Eh, I’m not sold on that. 4 of those games are gimme games (Oakland and KC). The Chargers should have swept the Broncos, but a poor call took that away. So in reality, the Chargers won 5 of their 8 games against teams with either extremely poor (KC and Oakland) or relatively poor (Broncos) records. That really doesn’t bolster my confidence in Turner’s coaching abilities. Yes, he wins in the playoffs. My concern with Turner is will he continue to get his team to the playoffs? I’m not so sure about that. They only made the playoffs last year because they were in the worst division (except for maybe the NFC West) in football.
by Calcio365 on May 29, 2009 5:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Response to Calcio365
I see your take as far as declining record and talent level. I grant you that Norv took over a more talented team than Belichick did. However, Belichick took a 8-8 team and went 5-11 the next year. More than likely a step back due to some personel and scheme change. That is to be expected.
The same happened with Norv’s first year. 14-2 is a very rare record and hard to achieve in any year for any team. I have not looked back at the records of 14-2 teams the following year but I would guess that 12-4, 11-5, 10-6 are records that most had. It is natural to take a step back after such a great year. Things change such as personel, schedule, injuries, etc. It is very hard to go 14-2. I am sure if Marty had been here he would have had a drop in record as well.
In 2008 the Chargers had high expectations fueled by media claiming them as SB favorites. In hindsight we should have seen the signs. But we all look through Bolt-colored glasses. On defense Merriman went down (not too unexpected), Stephen Cooper was suspended the first 4 games (a bigger deal than thought) and our DC could not adjust (leading to his firing midseason). Injuries to start the year mounted as well to key players; LT, Gates, Hardwick, Macniell, Castillo (as usual), Hart (broken hand 2nd game), Cromartie (hip). Goff on the right side was starting to show his age. Clary and Weddle were struggling to adjust to being starters. That is alot of key players playing hurt or missing for the first half of the season added with the struggles of aging and new starters. The 2nd half we got healthier and with a better DC the team turned the year around and played with more consistency. These are not excuses but facts. It would be hard for ANY HC or Team to ovecome those things and have a 8-8 record let alone make the playoffs. I am not the biggest Norv fan…in fact I hated the hire when AJ first announced it. However I have tried to be objective and give him a chance. I believe last year was one of his better years coaching for one simple fact…His team did not quit on him! With all the adversity it would have been easy to throw in the towel.
As for winning against our division…yes it is down. However a win against any division foe is not an easy feat especially when you are the king of the hill and they are trying to knock you off. I for one do not take for granted a win against KC, Denver or Oakland regardless of records. Those are always going to be tough battles and tough wins. I recall many years when we stunk and watching the bolts knock off better division foes and that made our year as we went 2-14 or 4-12. To dismiss those games as “gimmes” is to be uniformed or blind to the toughness of division games.
I say lets get this team healthy and see where the chips fall. If Norv struggles with a healthy and talented team then his fate will be sealed. If he wins another AFC Championship and has a deep playoff run then he will deserve the extension. But at this point the only other Coaches to take the Chargers to 2 consecutive years of playoffs is Sid Gillman (AFL), Don Coryell and Bobby Ross. In fact Bobby Ross went to the playoffs his first year then later 2 straight years. His record in the playoffs is 3-3 with the Chargers. Coryell’s is 3-4. So far Norv Tuner is on par with both of them.
By the way…Marty Schottenheimer only took the Chargers to the playoffs in 2004 and 2006 and went 0-2.
by PowderBlues on May 29, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not sure it is good to focus on outcomes
Norv can’t DO an AFC championship. The championship comes about as a result of the decisions Norv makes and the processes he implements.
I think what Norv should do is not hang his defense out to dry. And by that I mean he needs to at a minimum keep the time of possession at 40% or better. With the O-line in shambles, we are going to win next year on the back of the defense. If they have to be on field for 70% of the game clock we’ll suffer the end of game fatigue-collapses that Charger fans know and hate too well. I think Norv gets to this outcome by spreading out the formations, stretching the D, running quick developing plays and infrequently pressing the big play button (just to keep the secondary honest). This short, high precision game plan may be boring, and our red zone efficiency will suffer, but we stand the best chance of winning if our defense doesn’t wilt.
I also think he better be sending 5 on defense EVERY single play, and 6 sometimes. Good defenses make the play quickly and they make it in the back field. The best way to do that is to send your defenders into the back field. If he continues that line backer zone coverage scheme from the last two years, only sending 4 (or 3 ouch!) towards the QB, it will end badly.
by Trendsearcher on May 28, 2009 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What you said about offense is interesting...
Last year, I will have to agree with you that Norv’s quick scoring and low time of possession hurt our defense and possibly left us out to dry at engames (Carolina, Den for exa mple). But I for this year I disagree.
Our offense will be even more explosive, and our O-line will be better than last year (especially since we will be healthy), but we will still want to use LT sparingly to keep him healthy for the playoffs. We should still gunsling it around like last year and the <40% offensive possession will be okay. The difference this year is that we now have 3 starting quality, really good OLBs (Merriman, Philips, English). Our pass rush should be amazing, and if that Canadian DT pans out, even better. We can copy what the 2007 Pats did by getting ahead and forcing the opponents to work from behind, except it will work better for us since we will have a stellar pass rush.
by myn on May 28, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally concur – our pass rush will be off the charts…
… If Norv and Rivera decide to use it. Cotrell turned the spigot off. And in that first year I did not like it one bit. But he won me over by the end of the season. Donnie did such a great job ball hawking, Cormartie and Wedell too. They won in Cotrell’s first year with take aways.
So when things started slow in year two I thought – "Let’s be patient, maybe they will figure it out". But no Donnie. Cormartie had a great year in ’07, but I think most of his picks came off of double teams and playing center field. He’s good, but I think his successes in ’07 was more situational than skill. In ’08 he wasn’t 100%. At any rate the coverage didn’t happen, and neither did the pressure.
We don not have that coverage line backer next year either. So I think Norv should just run the "perma-blizt" ala Baltimore. But the speed guys only have so much fuel in the tank. Merriman is not as fast on the 50th play as he is on the 5th. So we have to keep them all fresh. I honestly think the Chargers can dominate in ’09 with solid defensive pressure and conservative ball control offence.
by Trendsearcher on May 29, 2009 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did we not bring in Burnett to be a coverage LB?
by gman87 on May 31, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We did bring him in specifically as a coverage LB
And if that pans out I will be ecstatic! Because if we can take away the slants and tight end crossing patterns our rush is gonna force opposing quarterbacks make bad decisions. I don’t mind spilling my frosty beverage if it was caused by jumping up and down after a big play on D.
But Burnett is a bit of a mystery to me. I hope this is another case where AJ shows his true genius in assessing talent.
by Trendsearcher on Jun 1, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well da facts is...
that Norv has had success and more of it when it counts than any chargers coach since old Bobby Ross. Marty was a fan favorite but he just couldn’t get it done when it counted. In the NFL every year is not going to be 14-2 I don’t care how much you want it to be but those seasons are not normal for any franchise. What has Norv done? Everything but take us to the destination that we long so deeply for as charger fans a Super Bowl win. I never have been a huge Norv fan but he has produced, so yes he deserves another shot. The only way I see him loosing his job is if we don’t win the division this year. Wins are what counts especially in January and so far Norv has given us that and for that I am thankful. Out..
by GABOLT on May 28, 2009 11:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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