Is Larry English Ready to Start?
by John Gennaro on Dec 3, 2009 6:13 AM PST
141 comments
Larry English will most likely get the start at OLB this week against the Browns, standing in for Shawne Merriman (who has missed very little time considering all of his injuries this season). Since the Chargers are in the second half of their schedule and it's now "Undefeated Month", this is just the right time to find out what kind of player their first round draft pick is.
Let's start out by seeing where English is in comparison to his peers. I'll be the first to admit that I've kept an eye on all three USC rookie linebackers, and they have all impressed me. Brian Cushing is every bit the player he was in college, Clay Matthews uses his speed to fly around and make plays, and Rey Maualuga is the missile-like force we all thought he'd be when we talked about drafting him.
MLB has not been an issue though, so Maualuga can be forgotten about, and we can take out Cushing because he's playing in a 4-3 and not as a pass-rusher. Besides Matthews, the only other 3 first-round pass-rushers drafted by teams running a 3-4 defense are English, Robert Ayers and Brian Orakpo. Let's compare.
Matthews - (541 plays) 29 tackles, 5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 5 defended passes, 1 defensive TD.
Ayers - (297 plays) 14 tackles, 0 sacks, 1 defended pass, 1 defensive TD.
Orakpo - (635 plays) 37 tackles, 7 sacks, 2 defended passes.
English - (338 plays) 20 tackles, 2 sacks, 6 QB pressures, 1 forced fumble. Keep in mind that I got the numbers from the guys above from unbiased stat sites, but I got English's numbers from the Chargers coaching staff (thus the extra "QB pressures" stat). The stat sites have him in about 40 less plays and credit him with only 17 tackles.
Since I like to even the playing field, let's find some averages.
Matthews - .05 tackles per play, .009 sacks per play
Ayers - .04 tackles per play, 0 sacks per play
Orakpo - .05 tackles per play, .01 sacks per play
English - .05 tackles per play, .005 sacks per play
So, has he been the complete bust that Ayers appears to be in Denver? No. When you factor in the way he's been used (sporadically, with very little rhythm), you can say he's actually been pretty good.
This week needs to be his coming out party. I know he'll be going up against Joe Thomas, one of the best LTs in the league, but Larry English needs to make everyone stop worrying about whether or not Shawne Merriman is going to play against Dallas or after that. The storylines we need to hear, heading into the playoffs, are the ones about the Chargers "3-headed-monster" at OLB. English's performance, up to this point, has not lived up to that.
In the past couple of years, the Bolts have been "stacked" enough that their first day picks don't have to make a contribution until towards the end of the season and the playoffs. Eric Weddle came on strong at the end of 2007, just like Antoine Cason and Jacob Hester did towards the end of 2008. Louis Vasquez has been pretty good all season, but with the OLBs dropping like flies it's absolutely necessary for Larry English to start contributing more and soon.
Now, let's step away from the stats a little bit. Allow me to vent. Larry English looks small to me. Not just short, but he seems to have a very short wingspan. That worries me. The more I see him on the field, the more he looks like he should be a MLB instead of an OLB. I stumbled across a pre-draft scouting report on him this morning, and here's what it said (I'll highlight the parts that stand out to me)....
Positives: Solid linebacker build, with more than adequate upper-body strength and legs for the position. Good motor, hustles down or across the field until the play is completed, even if initially blocked. Changes direction in space well. Secure wrap-up tackler when man is in his area. Can use his arms to keep linemen and fullbacks off him when standing up. Stays balanced and upright most times on stretch plays. At times he can bounce off a block using his punch. Has quick, violent hands to stay free. Stays at home on option plays until last possible moment. Able to drop back off the line in zone blitzes and stay with tight ends. Strong week of practice at the Senior Bowl eliminated many of the concerns regarding English's level of competition.
Negatives: Lacks the bulk to play with his hand down in the NFL, which he did in college. Gets engulfed by better left tackles on inside pass rush moves, lacks the strength to bull rush and doesn't quite have the speed to get the corner consistently (but has good closing speed when standing up). Fails to hold his ground when directly out of his stance and can't get off the block quickly enough to get to the ball. Will need to prove he can handle coverage duties against better tight ends and that he has zone awareness. Needs to get lower in his backpedal, as he stands a bit tall.
I don't understand. He can't rush inside, he can't bull-rush and he can't speed-rush. What the heck can he do? Even English's big plays this year came mostly off of plays where the coverage was good and he kept his motor going. As much as I'm rooting for the guy, he hasn't shown me anything yet. The fact that he has good speed, strength, intelligence and linebacker size doesn't make him a good pass-rusher.
You can point to Elvis Dumervil and say "There's a short guy who's getting it done!" Actually, both players ran similar 40 times at the Combine, both are about the same weight and Dumervil is at least 2 inches shorter. So yes, you're right. Larry English I guess has the potential to be Elvis Dumervil, and that would be great. I just don't know if I see that happening. Even Elvis had 8.5 sacks his rookie season.
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I'd give this guy time...
he did miss a bunch of camp time and pre season play time as well… but this guy has a burst and in due time he’ll get better. What worries me tho is that sometimes he looks lost lol but im sure he’ll get better… And he BETTER!
"It dont matter if you win or lose your still a loser... said the Chargers Fan"
by ChargersWitch on Dec 3, 2009 7:42 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I've given him time
He wasn’t a project pick like VJ or Vaughn Martin. He was predicted to do good things this season, and so far he really hasn’t.
I’m a lot less worried about him “looking lost” because that will go away with experience. I’m much more concerned with the way that he gets pushed around easily. He doesn’t seem strong enough to do anything but speed-rush, and he’s not fast enough to do anything but go flying behind the QB. That’s what I’ve seen, anyways.
If this was a 2nd or 3rd round pick, I’d be okay with it. As the 16th pick in the draft, I was and still am expecting a lot more.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
Hopefully against Cleveland he'll make u Happy :)
"It dont matter if you win or lose your still a loser... said the Chargers Fan"
by ChargersWitch on Dec 3, 2009 8:41 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
there seems to be an attitude with the chargers
and 1st round picks the last couple years: they don’t pick the players who could be the most amazing badasses but instead solid team players. English is good, Cason is good, Buster is good. None are amazing but they can help the team win and not be a weak point.
English is not a bust: he has money but he’s still working hard. He’s in shape, healthy and with little camp he’s at least not a weakness.
I like it
by not humble enough on Dec 3, 2009 8:59 AM PST up reply actions
Buster and Cason were late first rounders, where you typically are looking for solid starters instead of superstars. The Chargers lucking into the 16th spot this season was supposed to be their chance of getting a superstar.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
would u agree...
that we get more out of our undrafted guys than our 1st round picks? Aside from LT n Rivers i cant think of any other 1st rounders who wowed us unless im missing someone???
"It dont matter if you win or lose your still a loser... said the Chargers Fan"
by ChargersWitch on Dec 3, 2009 10:31 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Castillo
Merriman
Cromartie
"I aim to misbehave." - Mal Reynolds
by Zach (maestro876) on Dec 3, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions
Merri-who?
"I aim to misbehave." - Mal Reynolds
by Zach (maestro876) on Dec 3, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
i missed it
it as in the middle hiding after the bold word. I’m only human!
by not humble enough on Dec 3, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
It was honestly more of a necessity pick
There are still obvious health and salary concerns about Merriman.
Knowshon Moreno was off the board.
There were no strong safeties worth that pick.
Can’t imagine why they didn’t spring for Maualuga (which is a moot point, as the ILBs have done well) or Mike Oher (they still like Clary? Hell if I know.). No way was he the BPA at the time, but it made sense to take a guy who could spot Merriman and soon replace him. He’s got probably a year to grow into the starting role, assuming we franchise Merriman. I’m not particularly worried, in any case.
"Wipe that golden tear from your mother dear, and raise what's left of the flag for me."-- Flogging Molly, "What's Left Of The Flag"
Ali Villanueva (OT/WR, Army) has 460 yards and 5 TDs in only 7 games with a mediocre quarterback. Just sayin'...
by StrangeBroP25 on Dec 3, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Didn't really like the pick at the time and still dont like it now.
Imagine having Oher at RT and Clary at gaurd this season. Or having Donald Brown as an option out of the back field.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
Donald Brown
was taken at #27 in the first round. So you would have to trade down at least 5-6 spots. Not sure there was anyone who was willing to do that.
"I aim to misbehave." - Mal Reynolds
by Zach (maestro876) on Dec 3, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
or they could have just drafted him at #16
they reaced on English, Cason and Davis why not reach on brown as well.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
Well
I thought we were talking about maximizing value. Not switching out reaches.
"I aim to misbehave." - Mal Reynolds
by Zach (maestro876) on Dec 3, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
I was just talking about taking better players
and/or players of need. by the same definition Oher would have been a reach because he was selected 7 picks after English but if you watch him play he was a steal not a reach. Also Brown is averagin a yard more per cary than LT and Sproles and would be a starter next season.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
BROWN
wouldnt have even dressed most gamedays, we only carry four total RBs on the 45 usually
RBs are so overrated, we could get a solid guy in mid rounds next year
I'm pretty sure Bennet would not have dressed.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
You arent making any sense
I said Brown would be inactive on gamedays and you’re talking about Bennet. Who had we drafted Brown wouldnt have even been on the 53 man roster.
I was saying Brown would have replaced Bennet on the roster.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
i'd have to agree with that...
isn’t that why teams get the draft board in the first place? it’s a combination of the best players available and team needs…if there’s an absolute beast rb available this next year then we would be absolutely right to go after him in the draft, but we also need to make sure we have an o-line capable of opening some damn holes on a consistent basis…our pass blocking is great, the run blocking is the major element missing right now in making this offense virtualy unstoppable
"that wasn't a very good start to us getting our lives together. i didn't even go to work today."
...ya'll are brutalizing me... ronnie dobbs
by notorioushbi on Dec 3, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
He's right
The Chargers reached when they selected LT in the first round…Don’t you know you can get that kind of value on the 2nd day?
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
You're damned right
NFL rookie of the year Anthony Thomas was picked in the 2nd round that year and pro bowler Travis Henry as well. Every bit as good as LT. Every bit.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
Well travis Hennry
would have helped expand the population of San Diego, thus creating more charger fans.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
There's no way anyone could have figured out that you were just talking about the 2009 draft when you said:
Maximum value=
no first round RBs, Gs, Cs, Ss, (and WRs imo)
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
I think AirNorval is overstating a good principle.
The best players at some positions are generally better draft bargains than the best players at other positions. Sometimes this is because great players at a position are hard to find and easy to spot (like DTs). Sometimes, this is because great players at the position are true game-breakers and will get you to the playoffs (QB, for example). Sometimes it’s because there’s a glaring difference between the very best and the merely good (CB, WR, OLB/DE). Sometimes it’s a little of two or more, like OT and 4-3 MLB.
Any player at any O or D position who becomes a superstar also merits a high pick. But if you spend a first-rounder on a RB, you better get a very, very good one. LT is a great example of a top-5 pick spent on an RB that wasn’t a waste or reach. But he’s the exception.
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Dec 3, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
Strong post
One other thing thats worth noting when speaking of position value is playing time.
A QB, CB, edge rusher, 3 down ILB, offensive tackle, or pass rushing tackle increase their “value” even more based on the sheer amount of time (plays) they spend on the field; directly influencing the game.
Of course he's an exception
Every top 5 worthy pick is going to be an exception. These “rules” about which positions to draft are just too cumbersome. Every year you will find exceptions, that’s why the scouting staffs grade every player and put together a draft board. If a guy doesn’t grade as out in line with his position in the draft, then he shouldn’t be drafted there. There’s no need to get position involved. Except with QB, those guys will always be drafted higher, that’s just the way the draft has worked through the years since it hurts a team too much to pass on a franchise QB.
Where position does come into play is when you have glaring holes. Certain positions only have a good chance to be filled by 1st or 2nd rounders. Other than QB the positions include DT and LT. If you have to fill those positions, your best chance of doing so with be to use those picks. That still doesn’t mean you should reach (because obviously picking a guy higher than his grade would suggest doesn’t make him better), but maybe you’ll need to trade up to fill that hole (if the right guy won’t be there for you).
Rules of thumb to govern those principle are difficult to put into a sentence of two. Basically, teams need to grade guys out and pick the highest graded players or trade to get value comensurate with the team needs.
For more on drafting by position, reading this article might help. You might want to notice that drafting a RB in the first round really improves your chances of “hitting” on that position. Much more so than a lot of the other positions (save the the 3 I mentioned earlier).
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
by Wonko on Dec 3, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
My friends have said this to me for years
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
Sometimes
It’s best to just assume that I’m not arguing and just read.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
Nice article.
One thing I don’t agree with complete though is the “best player availble approach”. You’re telling me that if a QB is best player available for our first round pick, that we take him with P. Rivers on the roster, or we take a Kicker or Punter if they are BPA? To me that is ridiculous, and the strategy only applies to positions where a team needs valuable depth such as DB, LB, D-Line, O-Line, and WR.
Obviously common sense needs to be applied
And I feel like a broken record saying this again, but the idea that a QB, Kicker or Punter will be the BPA is highly unlikely. QBs go so much higher than their grades would dictate. And if for some reason a QB is the BPA, you damn well better trade that effing pick because the value on a trade will be sky high.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
by Wonko on Dec 4, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The proper approach
Is BPA at a need position?
Y: Take
N: Is BPA at a value position of some need?
Y: Take
N: Is BPA at a high-value low-need position?
Y: Trade down
N: Take best available player at one of top 3-4 need/value positions.
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Dec 4, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
*The proper approach to drafting BPA
Not to all kinds of drafting or in all circumstances. Just when one guy is better than others by enough to be obvious.
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Dec 4, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Special-Teamers
are never BPA, even when they are. Kickers are such a low-value position that “player quality” only compares to other special-teamers and dedicated roleplayers. QBs as BPA pretty much only happens at the top of the first round or late in the second day. But the larger principle you might be pointing to is that need is the first criterion, before positional value or player talent: that’s very correct.
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Dec 4, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
Lets wait and see if he can be another lights out
maybe they should’ve drafted an RT this year and next year if they got rid of merriman thats wen they should’ve drafted and OLB. But I like english.Its a good pick in my opinion
So where do the numbers come from?
Are you using a site for 3 guys, and the Chargers for English’s stats? I dont quite understand
Yes
Here are English’s numbers from the other site:
(299 plays) 17 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 defended pass, 1 forced fumble
I just wanted to use the Chargers stats because I like the “QB pressures” stat.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
I’m okay with him doing it in winnable games so that he can be healthy for the big ones.
Nobody, except for some QBs, take off an entire year and come back without injuries. Those 8 guys that are on IR will probably have trouble staying healthy next season. It’s just one of those things that you absolutely, positively cannot simulate. So when you’re out of the game, even for a month, your body is not ready to take the hits the same way that it was.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
since when did Washington start running a 3-4 defense?
Be careful....to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
It's a hybrid of sorts
I think it is anyways. Orakpo rushes off the edge a heck of a lot for somebody just playing OLB in a 4-3 defense.
There’s no way in hell a college DE was drafted to play 4-3 OLB in the NFL, start his rookie year and has 7 sacks through 11 games playing a position that traditionally doesn’t get sacks. Right?
Somebody smart than me, can you clarify?
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
No I can't, sorry.
Mountain West Connection ::Above the Rest::
Bolts From The Blue "There’s a gleam men. Let’s go get the gleam! Focus and Finish!!! One play at a time!!! Let's Go!!!"
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by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Dec 3, 2009 8:40 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I just figured out that I can see who Rec’s what. That’s awesome.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
Share the wealth!
Mountain West Connection ::Above the Rest::
Bolts From The Blue "There’s a gleam men. Let’s go get the gleam! Focus and Finish!!! One play at a time!!! Let's Go!!!"
Representing the San Diego State University Aztecs, home of the 2009 College Cheerleading National Champions in the all women's division.
by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Dec 3, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
You didn’t know that? You’ve been missing out.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
smarter*
What a terrible/ironic typo
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
I laughed.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
He is a strong side LB
Yea Washington confused alot of people by switching him from a 43 DE to a 43 OLB, but he plays DE on passing downs.
He does have the advantage of getting to blitz from different spots when they are in base though.
Oher would look really good right now
Mountain West Connection ::Above the Rest::
Bolts From The Blue "There’s a gleam men. Let’s go get the gleam! Focus and Finish!!! One play at a time!!! Let's Go!!!"
Representing the San Diego State University Aztecs, home of the 2009 College Cheerleading National Champions in the all women's division.
by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Dec 3, 2009 8:41 AM PST reply actions
what? Vasquez is awesome!
Every time LT goes to the right of the line look for number 65: he’s the one standing up or pushing his man everytime.
by not humble enough on Dec 3, 2009 8:55 AM PST up reply actions
Vasquez is a guard Oher is a tackle
Mountain West Connection ::Above the Rest::
Bolts From The Blue "There’s a gleam men. Let’s go get the gleam! Focus and Finish!!! One play at a time!!! Let's Go!!!"
Representing the San Diego State University Aztecs, home of the 2009 College Cheerleading National Champions in the all women's division.
by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Dec 3, 2009 9:03 AM PST up reply actions
Having Oher would mean Clary would be on the bench, and before his injury Clary was having a good year. Also, and maybe this is what NHE meant, they probably wouldn’t have drafted Vasquez and they probably wouldn’t have drafted an OLB.
I contend that they were never even considering Oher.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
They probably weren't considering Oher.
Which may have been a mistake. If you take Oher, you can move Clary inside to guard (which many think he would be better suited at; I read an article the other day saying Clary is a guard masquerading as a tackle) and use your 3rd round pick on something else like a running back that doesn’t get cut in the pre-season, or a project DE from a small school that you want to turn into an OLB.
I agree that I was expecting more from English. A first rounder should be a starter, especially one taken at #16. A role-player or project should be taken lower. Like someone pointed out, it seems like AJ is drafting safe, team players that can be solid but not spectacular. This reminds me a lot of the Padres draft strategy up until this last year—take someone who can come up quickly and who won’t be a bust, but don’t take any risks on players with a lot of upside. Teams like Philly and Minnesota took risks on players like Maclin and Harvin, and they’re paying off immediately.
This gets back to another issue a lot of people have with AJ. He seems to think the roster is fine where it is for the most part, and only needs minor tweaks. We came into this season with only one projected starter (Burnett) who wasn’t on the roster last year. Everyone else was supposed to be a role-player or back-up. Injuries have forced more new players into the lineup, but that clearly wasn’t the plan.
"I aim to misbehave." - Mal Reynolds
by Zach (maestro876) on Dec 3, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He played LT for a game and did well, I don’t know if he still is though.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Dec 3, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
He is their RT
The Ravens like their LT Gaither.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
Clary is average at best.
Oher is a stud who could have been moved to LT if things did not work out with McNeil.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
YEAH
Well Clary earned the most money in the whole league in performance pay last year. Thats hardly average.
As long as Oher is a RT I dont mind AJ passing on him. Granted I thought picking him was a sure thing when he fell to us.
But with half our OLBs hobbled the pick is looking more and more solid everyday
the answer is
yes
Bring back Balboa Stadium.
by calipatrick on Dec 3, 2009 9:28 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Oher + Vasquez on the right side =...
A big smile on my face! Clary’s okay but Oher is a stud.
That never would’ve happened.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Dec 3, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
Two rookies on one side of the line
That puts a smile on your face. You’re a weird dude.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
by Wonko on Dec 3, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It would be more about the potential for me.
and both of them would be/are upgrades @ their positions from what we have/had in my opinion.
I don't think offensive lineman work like
You can’t just take two rookies and think that they will be automatic upgrades. Line play has almost as much to do with consistency than it does talent.
I think there was a study and a team that keeps their offensive line from the previous season is more likely to see an upgrade in line play than one that drafts a rookie in the 1st round. Or something like that.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
And if you’ll all recall Vasquez wasn’t supposed to start. He only won the job because Forney got hurt.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
That makes sense.
I guess just the idea of it sounded good in my head.
one more thing..
Larry English hasn’t started a game all season, That should be factored in also. Orakpo has started all 11 and Matthews has started 8. Limited snaps, limited opportunities.
If he had been spectacular in those limited opportunities, I think he would’ve had a chance to start (and Merriman would’ve taken a game off) by now.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Dec 3, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Not too sure about this
English was looking like the most effective OLB we had in some of those semi-early games where the D-line was a disaster (eg Pitt I think). The Merriman started improving, Phillips took off and English’s time went down by a fair bit. After and injury interrupted pre-season (with a hamstring which is going to limit his acceleration, so a pretty important thing to take into account), I’m willing to give him a bit more time.
I asked KA about English around a week ago and this is what he had to say:
He’s quick, strong and instinctive. He’s a good player. He isn’t on the field as much as he was at times in September and October, which is good for the Chargers. He’s still learning.
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Maybin was a "project" anyway
Most NFL people would tell you that, much like how the NBA drafts freshmen over polished juniors and seniors, the Bills picking Maybin was an upside ploy. I personally don’t like Maybin over Orakpo, but I understand the mentality of picking a guy they think will eventually be the better of the two.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
Size DOESN"T matter
at least in this instance. James Harrison is only 6’0" 242 and doesn’t seem to have any issues… Larry is 6’2" 255. Give him some time, I don’t think anybody expected him to be dominant in year one, esp. coming from a small school. He’s going to be a beast next year.
Way too early
to make any kind of judgment in my opinion. The defensive line is a patchwork and while they are holding out, who is really dominating? If the line isn’t commanding any double teams, it’s hard to fault English for a low sack ratio. Also look at Harrison, how old was he before he really got it? The rule of thumb is to wait three years on a draft pick; English has been good but not spectacular.
What I like is the blue collar type work ethic. That constant motor is something you don’t see very often, he has an awareness and has the feel of a solid citizen. You just aren’t gonna see this guy getting duis and starting bar fights or suspended for substance abuse. This guy is the defensive leader we lack now, but not for another 3-5 years.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Dec 3, 2009 2:39 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
3 years haha
Buy that time these guys will be looking for their 2nd contract, the whole point of the draft is to get talented guys cheaply.
Vincent Jackson
You’re saying he wasn’t a great pick?
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Dec 3, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Imagine if Rivers came into camp on time.
Bree’s would probably be selling insurance now, you have to give guys 3 years.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 3, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
That would have been sad.
I was going to say that would have cost us a 3rd round pick, but we wasted that on Anthony Waters anyway.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
Also look at Harrison, how old was he before he really got it? The rule of thumb is to wait three years on a draft pick; English has been good but not spectacular.
Harrison was about 30. He went undrafted and never had any success in previous stints with the Steelers and Ravens. I’m going to go out on a limb and say his success has something to do with Dick LeBeau.
I think the rule of other picks, the ones that need help to get to the NFL level, is to wait three years. My personal rule of thumb is that when you’re drafted in the first round, you better have incredible potential (Cromartie) or be NFL-ready. I see neither out of Larry thusfar.
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, I’m just saying that I’d be much more comfortable with what I’ve seen so far is he had been a 2nd round pick or even a late 1st round. Not a #16.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
Cant believe I agree with John
I personally like 1st round picks better when they actually play right away. A year if he’s behind some good players maybe.
That said I’m really starting to get excited about Engish, now that he’ll start getting more playing time down the stretch.
OK
But so many non-seniors went out in 2008 that 2009 wasn’t particularly deep. I actually thought the Pats were pretty smart to pick up all those second rounders.
Harrison had an attitude problem, but he also didn’t go from zero to amazing; he started off on their practice squad and used to get so lost he would give up on plays. Lebeau was no doubt part of the equation; it just takes some players longer is all I’m saying and it’s premature to call a draft a bust before you give the players that time. I have heard VJ, Cromartie and Weddle all called busts at various times.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Dec 3, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
Patriots
were extremely astute in getting those 2nd rounders. They may not be paying off this year for them, but they will in the next couple.
Although, Hakeem Nicks or Kenny Britt sure would be doing more for their passing game than Sam Aiken was doing on Monday night.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
Absolutely
I really liked Chung and Brace, I thought they were both solid pickups. It absolutely kills me that they are getting the Raiders number one in 2011 which will no doubt be another top ten pick.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Dec 4, 2009 6:47 AM PST up reply actions
I never called English a bust. I was careful of that. I’m just saying he’s worrying me at this point, and I’d prefer he had a big game against Cleveland so I can stop worrying.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
All I want him to do is BEE AWESOME!!!!
every game. Then I will be happy.
ALso I would like him to give me M&Ms
by not humble enough on Dec 3, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions
You're exactly right, the expectations for rookie's is way too high.
Take a look at a few high draft picks, remember Q. Jammer anyone? All of San Diego thought he was a BUST for 3-4 years. Then he got his game right, and he’s one of the most consistent CB in the league now. On the other hand a guy like Adrian Peterson, steps in Day 1 and is an All-Pro. Each player develops at a different rate, and there’s just no way to make a proper analysis this early in the game.
By noticing English on the few plays that we have, like the 2 sacks, the recovered fumble against KC, I think already meets rookie expectations.
Let him get a few starts under his belt, let him play an entire game. Then let him put a few in a row together, and see what kind of production you get. There’s a learning curve, and it’s not gonna be the same regardless if you’re are #1 pick or Mr. Irrelevant. Take a look at Marques Colston a 7th round pick producing immediately in his rookie year (in only 14 games, 70 catches, 1038 yards, 8 TD), but in the same draft you have Mario Williams who is completely quiet (47 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 FF), then breaks out in year 2 (59 tackles, 14 sacks, 2 FF). You just can’t judge this early on regarless of where someone is drafted.
I think there is some missing context though
The Chargers are pushing for a Championship right now. If they had a 1st round draft that doesn’t contribute to that, then for this team that’s kind of a bust. Sure, you could have a Jammer situation where it takes time to develop, but the reality is that it serves as a loss to the team if a player develops after the championship window closes (not that it necessarily will, but you can’t count on it to still be open either). I think that’s what drives people to decide if the pick was a bust or not so early on in the process. It’s not that they don’t think he’ll become a good NFL player, but rather how does his development affect the team.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
by Wonko on Dec 4, 2009 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Up to a point
But that can also lead to an overeager desire to get that one guy that will push you over the top. Hester is perhaps an example of that (at the risk of breaching my own three year rule). I think Rivers is somewhat like Peyton in that as long he is behind center the Window is always going to be open to one extent or another. The team needs to do what is in the long term health of the franchise and be patient, don’t reach, don’t overpay, just try and establish depth.
I like the Patriots on this; they have a good team, they could have spent their number one draft choice in 2009 draft and kept Seymour and been better positioned to go all the way. Brady is getting older, Moss is also a geaser; instead they went for some quality second rounders and a top 2011 pick that will be the foundation for their next window. I’m actually more afraid of AJ getting fed up with the ‘Lord of no rings’ mantle and making expedient decisions over long term planning. Mostly just thinking there, all things being equal I have no quarrel with the view that it is better for players to start off contributing at a high level; I just have a lot of patience when they don’t. I even hold out hope for Buster and his endless groin pull.
"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman
by Brian (DaBolts) on Dec 4, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
For me the question is how good will be from next year onwards
You’ve got some legit concerns about this, but I don’t think we need him to be dominating this year. Yes it would be nice, but I don’t think we needed to take a risk from someone who would make an impact this year (at OLB or something like RB).
Our OLB corps have been struck down more than I think is reasonable to expect, but Rivera has the defense playing pretty well now anyway, and the QB pressure has been getting better I think (I don’t have the stats for this). If we lose SM next year then English needs to be starting and striking some fear into opposition hearts.
Passion Play - follow the annual quest for the premiership in all its horror and glory, http://spunc.com.au/members/hunter/product/9780980517965/
Well, if ever there was a team to get your fisrt start against...Its Cleveland!
I only wish that my Dennis Dixon would have had this kind of fortune!
He wont play great, but very competent at the least
Juju, you complete me...And now as your humble-as-ever servant, I kindly request the following:
So, how is it that one brother is named "James", and the next one "Jacquizz"?
Anyways, based on the picture; they look as if they have a relationship thats a little too comfortable.
The thing that bothers me about English
Is that according to Scouts, Inc he came into the draft with a grade of 89. That typically signifies that what you are getting is a potential starter, but in all likelihood he’s not going to be an all pro or one of the top at his position.
Merriman on the other hand carried a 95 grade. That means that the minimum expectation would be one of the tops at his position and a good chance to become an all pro.
Probably, the Chargers graded English differently, but so far I’m not seeing much from English that differentiates him from Applewhite or Jyles Tucker. He needs to prove it on the field I guess and he should get his opportunity. I’m rooting for him, but I’m not as optimistic as I’d like to be for a guy who was picked so high.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
by Wonko on Dec 3, 2009 4:23 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Decided to look at our other 2009 draft picks according to Scouts, Inc.:
Louis Vasquez – 59 – 5th Round
Vaughn Martin – 20 – Not a legitimate Prospect
Brandon Hughes – 45 – Late Rounds
Kevin Ellison – 58 – 5th Round
Demetrius Byrd – 56 – 5th Round
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Vaughn Martin rates a 20 because they had no scouting report on him at all.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
All of those picks come with concerns actually.
Vasquez – Could he run-block?
Martin – What competition?
Hughes – Too small, can’t tackle
Ellison – Too big, can’t cover.
Byrd – Brain Injury
Still probably not the ideal draft. I really think the meat of the 09 draft was in the second round and late first round, where the Chargers had no picks at all.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
clearly Vasquez's grade was stupid
that dude is awesome
by not humble enough on Dec 4, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions
He better be ready
He’s starting Sunday
Mountain West Connection ::Above the Rest::
Bolts From The Blue "There’s a gleam men. Let’s go get the gleam! Focus and Finish!!! One play at a time!!! Let's Go!!!"
Representing the San Diego State University Aztecs, home of the 2009 College Cheerleading National Champions in the all women's division.
by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Dec 3, 2009 5:59 PM PST reply actions
Way to read just the headline.
By the way, I just found out that the only guy on Philly sports radio worth listening to used to teach Constitutional Law at St. Joe’s. What the heck is up with lawyers being so into sports?
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
Yeah I'm really lazy
Um, isn’t most of everyone into sports?
Mountain West Connection ::Above the Rest::
Bolts From The Blue "There’s a gleam men. Let’s go get the gleam! Focus and Finish!!! One play at a time!!! Let's Go!!!"
Representing the San Diego State University Aztecs, home of the 2009 College Cheerleading National Champions in the all women's division.
by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Dec 3, 2009 7:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
What the heck is up with lawyers being so into sports?
Lawyers seem to make up at least 10% of this crowd of people that like to analyze the game instead of just cheering. I know, the reason is cause you guys are smart and like analyzing stuff…..but many lawyer TV shows put me under the impression that there’s no time for fun or relaxation when you’re a lawyer.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
I think most of us are law students not lawyers
That might explain the discrepancy.
Mountain West Connection ::Above the Rest::
Bolts From The Blue "There’s a gleam men. Let’s go get the gleam! Focus and Finish!!! One play at a time!!! Let's Go!!!"
Representing the San Diego State University Aztecs, home of the 2009 College Cheerleading National Champions in the all women's division.
by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Dec 4, 2009 8:38 AM PST up reply actions
Mixed
Seems to me AJ was filling a need and not taking best player; given the year before was disaster without a pass rush. I would believe he wasn’t losing sleep over our offense so really the choice would have been a defensive guy. We definitely needed an edge guy, because at that moment the Chargers didn’t know what they were getting back in Merriman.
Really after Cushing was taken in the OLB/DE slot was Mathews or English…..
My really only question why not drop a few slots if you were going for Mathews or English.
As far as performance, I think you you see more performance when he get more regular reps. Situations sometimes dictate stats.
I think dropping/trading spots messes with a player's heads
“They only got me cause they thought I was cheap?”
“They trade all the time, why didn’t they come higher to get me?”
“I’m just a number to them and they proved that when I wasn’t worth it 6 picks earlier.”
Instead, if you pick a guy when it’s your pick then…
“Every single team that didn’t pick me before didn’t believe in me, now i have a chip on my shoulder”
Marcus McNiel said this in an article (appox): “When I didn’t get picked early it devastated me. I didn’t talk to anyone for days. Chargers picked me with their 2nd round pick and told me they almost picked me where they picked Cromartie in the 1st round.” ala I’m going to prove to everyone that I was worthy of a top-5 pick. And being picked after Cro’ isn’t an insult.
I think it makes a big difference. When I see the Patriots players I sense that they feel like they are being used. Like they don’t own their team cause there is a mastermind pulling every lever.
by not humble enough on Dec 3, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions
Patience
is the key here, English is ok with the potential to be good if not great. Let the season play out before making assumptions. Just 6 weeks ago some of chargerland was ready to start rebuilding. ahhh patience truly is a virtue!
toby gerhart
chargers 2010 1st round draft choice
Please no.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "I win again. Engrish is my bitch." - Steven Zucconi
by Richard Wade on Dec 3, 2009 10:37 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Gerhart/Hester in the backfield would make a statement
That statement being “We’re trying to make it harder for Norv and Philip.”
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
by John Gennaro on Dec 4, 2009 4:15 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I want me a back with some strength.
Jonathan Dwyer would be cool but I’d take Gerhart/Tolbert.
"Wipe that golden tear from your mother dear, and raise what's left of the flag for me."-- Flogging Molly, "What's Left Of The Flag"
Ali Villanueva (OT/WR, Army) has 460 yards and 5 TDs in only 7 games with a mediocre quarterback. Just sayin'...
by StrangeBroP25 on Dec 4, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions
Rather, a backfield of Gerhart/Tolbert.
Not suggesting we draft Mike Tolbert again.
"Wipe that golden tear from your mother dear, and raise what's left of the flag for me."-- Flogging Molly, "What's Left Of The Flag"
Ali Villanueva (OT/WR, Army) has 460 yards and 5 TDs in only 7 games with a mediocre quarterback. Just sayin'...
by StrangeBroP25 on Dec 4, 2009 8:36 PM PST up reply actions
But....
Two Tolberts are better than one.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
I love crazy ideas
They are so entertaining. And sooo crazy. And hey look, it annoyed Richard too.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
by Wonko on Dec 4, 2009 1:38 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Is it really that crazy?
I was thinking about this the other day when I was looking at some draft stuff, doesn’t Gerhart just feel like an AJ type pick?
I dont think AJ will use a first round pick on him, this class looks to be a bit flush with DT’s so I think the bolts will use thier first rounder on one but, if Gerhart is there early in the second (unless he runs a killer 40 at the combine I think he will be) I could see AJ trading a few late round picks and next years second rounder to move up and get him like he did with both Weddel and Hester.
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 4, 2009 7:53 AM PST up reply actions
The first round part is indeed the crazy part
And if LT and Sproles go out the door then drafting a guy who doesn’t really project as a starting running back with one of your higher picks seems like a pretty harebrained idea.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
by Wonko on Dec 4, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Not saying its a good idea
trust me I dont think Gerhart will make it as a feature back in the NFL and not do I want the chargers to spend anyhting more than a 3rd or 4th rounder on him. But doesn’t it just feel like something AJ would do?
by Steve (Grey Suit) on Dec 4, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
Not really
I get the Weddle and Hester comparison, but I don’t think its terribly apt when you’re talking about the featured RB of the offense. I actually don’t think there’s much similarity between the Weddle and Hester moves other than they were high-priced trade-ups for white guys. Weddle was a legit pick in a spot where there were few starting caliber safeties left in the draft, he filled a future need as safety (and a current need at nickelback) and was an excellent value where they got him. Hester was none of those things. It was just a bad trade all around for a position that was not going fast in that draft, a player who was not highly coveted and seemed almost purely based on need.
Wisdom can not be cultivated through ignorance of information.
Agreed
I’d also think that AJ would learn from past mistakes.
"I did not invent the wheel, I was the crooked spoke adjacent." - Aesop Rock
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