Norv Turner the best Charger coach since Don Coryell?

by CoastalBronco on Jan 22, 2009 2:55 PM PST Comment 42 comments

My sensationalist headline aside (obviously I'm not a Bobby Ross fan), Bill Williamson's latest throws Norv a little love. Key stats from his article:

Here are a few facts that show that Turner, a noted quarterback guru, is not the head coaching disaster some believe he has been in San Diego:

After just two seasons, Turner is tied for the most playoff victories in team history (3, tied with Don Coryell and Bobby Ross).

The Chargers are 12-2 under Turner in December and January, and 9-0 under Turner in December.

The Chargers led the AFC in scoring with 27.4 points per game, second overall in the NFL.

The Chargers led the NFL with the highest average per pass play.

The Chargers also ranked 3rd in yards per play.

Quarterback Philip Rivers set team records and led the NFL with 34 TD passes (Dan Fouts had 33 in '81) and a 105.5 passer rating.

Rivers' 100.6 passer rating over the last 27 games is the highest in the NFL over that period (includes five playoff games): 17-10 record, 51 TDs, 19 INTs, 63.5 completion percentage.

I agree that Norv doesn't get the respect he deserves, but I guess starting a pre-season Super Bowl favorite at 4-8 will do that for a guy.

This FanPost was written by a member of the Bolts From The Blue community and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bolts From The Blue editors or SB Nation.

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4-8 start

Not all Norv’s fault. That much was proven when he switched D-Coordinators and the team went on a run.

I really think AJ has been proven right that Norv is a good coach. I also like to keep in mind that Norv hasn’t been a head coach forever, like Marty was, which means he’s still growing and learning and becoming a better coach. It also means that if he has sustained success he could be our coach for a long, long time and build a legacy here the way Cowher did in Pittsburgh.

by John (obviousman) on Jan 23, 2009 5:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ross got further with a far less talented team

Ross is the 2nd best coach in charger history he got to the superbowl with Stan Humphries, Natron Means and Toney Martin as his three main offensive weapons. Thier defence was great in 94 but im not sure if it was much more talented than the chargers current D they just played well togeather.

by Steve (Grey Suit) on Jan 23, 2009 7:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

great point

I confess a bias, since I didn’t really like the Chargers in the Beathard/Ross/Humphries era.

by CoastalBronco on Jan 23, 2009 9:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll go on record as saying

The Chargers D in 1994 was just as talented (relative to the league) as the current Chargers D. Junior was one of the top 3 (if not the best) LB in the league. Gordon and Harper were both very solid corners and Gordon could be nearly as dazzling as Cromartie in his INT and punt returns. The pass rushers were excellent. Leslie O’Neal was one of the best in the game and Mims had the talent to be one of the best at his positon (and in 1994 he played like it). Shawn Lee was a penetrator who got some sacks and a solid run stopper. They also had a young Raylee Johnson who was a talented pass rusher as well and he would sub in at times. The safeties were solid players and I’m not going to hold it against them that they couldn’t cover Ricky Watters or Jerry Rice one-on-one.

Switching to the offense, while its true that there were only 3 main big play weapons, the contributions of Ronnie Harmon and his ability to turn 3rd downs in 1sts was outstanding. Jefferson may have been a little underrated as a Charger because he had some real solid years after leaving San Diego. The other guys (Seay, Pupunu, Bienemy) played their roles well on offense.

But, yeah, Ross was definitely a better coach than Turner. He was better at turning boys into men into winners. He could take a college team and make them National Champions and take a team that went 22-42 over 4 seasons and coach them for 5 seasons that included a Super Bowl appearance, 2 other playoff teams, and no losing seasons. Oh, and by the way, the 1994 Super Bowl team was first year that Chargers were missing two of their biggest offensive threats, 5 time pro bowler who led the 1993 team in receptions, yards from scrimmage, TDs and had more receiving yards than the next two receiving leaders (one of which, Nate Lewis, also left) combined, Anthony Miller and two time pro bowler and the 1993 team rushing leader Marion Butts.

1-10-DEN 18 (9:52) (Shotgun) 6-J.Cutler pass short right intended for 19-E.Royal INTERCEPTED by 93-L.Castillo (95-S.Phillips) at DEN 18. 93-L.Castillo to DEN 14 for 4 yards (62-C.Wiegmann). 6-J.Cutler pouts ob to DEN 25 for 11 yards.

by Wonko on Jan 23, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs

This is how I broke it down in my head

Remember this is going off of talent not necessarily performance

Merriman or Seau => Merriman
Williams or Sean Lee and Rubin Davis => Williams
Olshanski and Castillo or Mims and O’neal => Mims and O’neal
Widdel or Richard => Weddel
Hart or Carrington => Carrington
Jamer or Gordon => toss up
Cromartie or Harper => toss up (depends on if you use healthy 07 Cromartie or injured 08 one)
LB’s overall => Ross Chargers

by Steve (Grey Suit) on Jan 23, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Dude. W-E-D-D-L-E.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Jan 23, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I know I used this term already

But relative to the rest of the league. Seau is a more talented player than Merriman. Merriman is arguably in the top 10 most talented LBs in the league. Seau was arguably the most talented LB in the league. I’m also willing to say that Cromartie is more talented since injuries don’t matter based on your Merriman/Seau comparison. But I think Richard vs Weddle is closer to a toss up.

by Wonko on Jan 23, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Depends on who you talk to

Some people say that Merriman is the best LB in the League and for sure the best OLB. At the moment what OLB would you rank ahead of Merriman?

by Steve (Grey Suit) on Jan 23, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure

i would rank them ahead, but Ware, Harrison and Porter are all great at OLB. Seau and Merriman are a bit hard to compare, Seau was better in coverage and a tackle machine, Merriman gets more sacks and forced fumbles.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 23, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You kind of proved my point

You say “Depends on who you talk to”, I don’t know that in 1994 you would’ve have gotten much argument about who the best LB in the league was. The All-Pro team LBs were Seau, Lloyd and Greene and Seau was a much more complete LB than the other two, but Lloyd could definitely give him a run for his money. Seau was also on 1992 and 1993 all pro teams. Merriman did make an All Pro team in 2006 though, but not in 2007 or 2008 (for obvious reasons). I think you are severely underselling Seau and pumping up Merriman to a level he hasn’t quite attained (especially with the injury thing).

by Wonko on Jan 23, 2009 5:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn’t help that Merriman was busted for juicing too.

This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.

by KingRichard on Jan 23, 2009 5:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He did not make the all pro team in 2007 but he did get votes for teh defensive player of the year.

and he only played in 12 games.

It is a bit of apples and oranges but I’m not saying who is the better player or who will have the better career I’m saying that Merriman has more natural talent as an OLB.

by Steve (Grey Suit) on Jan 23, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

well I guess it may not all be "Natural" talent

but you know what I mean.

by Steve (Grey Suit) on Jan 23, 2009 8:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think my point with all the All-Pro stuff is

That if Seau did capitalize on 100% of his talent, then the level of that talent (based on his level of achievement) is quite incredible. And Merriman, if he is as talented, is wasting a lot of it by not achieving those same levels. And I think the injuries and suspensions have to be counted against him because they both can be argued to be a reflection of his talent level.

by Wonko on Jan 25, 2009 12:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That was exactly my point though!

the 94 D was not as talented as the 06 & 07 D they just got more out of their talent which is normally directly linked to better coaching.

by Steve (Grey Suit) on Jan 25, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fine

But I don’t think Merriman is underachieving as much you think he is. He’s getting what he can out of his talent, but Seau had more talent and thus could get more out of it.

by Wonko on Jan 26, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Whoa whoa whoa…

You think Merriman is better than Seau? How…why?

This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.

by KingRichard on Jan 23, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

There’s certainly an argument to be made there.

by Richard Wade on Jan 23, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I’d be interested in seeing one. Looking at Seau’s credentials makes the argument kind of moot. And before you start arguing that Merriman has only beein the league since 2005, that’s actually my point.

This line will remain in my signature until the Colts draft Rashad Jennings in 2009.

by KingRichard on Jan 23, 2009 5:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You wouldn’t compare their records, but rather their talents. Since we’re talking about one year rather than careers.

by Richard Wade on Jan 24, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously I hate it when

Chargers fans say that Cromartie is still really good, but he was just injured this year. He is extremely overrated, even last year. I am not saying that he was bad last year, just that he was really overrated.

by stedtfeld on Jan 27, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How many

of his 2007 games did you see?

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 27, 2009 9:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I would guess “not many.”

by Richard Wade on Jan 27, 2009 11:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I saw every game in 2007

And I agree he was extremely overrated.

by Wonko on Jan 28, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair Enough

I don’t mind a conclusion that’s based on something. I’d say he was a premier corner in 2007 and led the Chargers to a number of wins with his play down the stretch. He showed great hands and amazing speed; if he gave up more big plays, he was also a game changer. The Chargers pass defense was an amazing surprise down the stretch; Cromartie gambles but in 2007 he had the skills to make that work.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 28, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed that 07 Cromartie was something special

It’s hard to overrate 10 picks. In addition to his hip, I wonder how much the 08 changes at the safety position affected his season. I would think his aggressiveness is best complemented with help over the top. Hart seems to be losing a step every year, and although Weddle shows some promise, McCree had a significant advantage in experience.

by CoastalBronco on Jan 28, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

10 picks

I think a lot of those had to do with luck, situation and lack of film.

Luck: Any time you are dealing with interceptions a certain amount of luck will come into play. It could be a tip or a bad throw, but the only skill at that point is catching the ball. The coverage of the receiver most likely did not help you get the pick. I’m sure at least one of the picks could have been considered lucky.

Situation: Cromartie was a rookie. Teams wanted to test him and Jammer already had a rep for being a good corner. Teams through it his way figuring that he couldn’t handle it. There’s also the whole Merriman providing pressure thing.

Lack of film: Teams didn’t know what to expect of Cromartie. There wasn’t much college film to go on. Manning probably thought that he could throw it over Cromartie’s head. He was wrong. Teams also now know his tendencies on double moves and the like.

All this means that basing his skill level on his 10 picks is not fair analysis. It is going to overrate him. Does this stuff mean that he is a bad corner? No, of course not. But, I’m definitely hesitant to say that because he got 10 picks that he is then a “premier corner” or a “game changer”. I definitely think he has shown the skills to be those things, but the primary responsibility of a corner is coverage and he needs to prove that he can do that. Because the luck, situation and lack of film that happened in 2007 will never happen quite like that again.

by Wonko on Jan 28, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Cromartie was more than picks

Asomugha hardly gets any picks because they don’t throw his way. If you read my summary I said he had good hands, speed, and a willingness to gamble, none of those are ‘situational’ or ‘lucky’. I’m not going to argue there was no luck involved, but that ends up being true of anything in football and a little specious. Pressure is certainly part of the equation, give a QB enough time and any corner will get beaten, even a great one so that’s an argument that cuts both ways. For that matter so can safety play, as Coastal Bronco points out.

Lack of film certainly can contribute; on the other hand seasoning works in the opposite direction; Jammer didn’t come fully into his own until two or three years as he figured out exactly how aggressive he could be in coverage. Cromartie had ten picks plus he made 18 pass defenses to go with it; that’s a total of 28 balls he prevented the receiver from getting; all that while starting just six games. He completely shut down Moss against the Patriots and we all know what he did to Manning. The Chargers had a great DVOA against primary and secondary receivers in 2007; it was more than just luck and circumstance in my opinion. As awful as he was this year, I firmly believe he was a premier corner in 2007 and I’m pretty hopeful about a return to form.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 28, 2009 6:12 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Chargers secondary DVOA

Those were so high mainly because of the interceptions.

I agree with everything you say about Cromartie’s talents, but I just don’t think he’s done what Jammer did and figured out how to cover properly. Where Jammer was “handsy”, Cromartie is “gambly”. In 2007 teams underestimated his recovery ability when he gambled and they lost. They know better now. Maybe the fact that they’ve had to adjust to him makes him a premier corner, but I’m more inclined to say no because it seems like they figured out how to beat him. He’s got the talent to be one of the best, but it still needs refinement. It took Jammer about 5-6 years to finally refine his, hopefully Cromartie does it quicker (and learns to stay healthy).

by Wonko on Jan 28, 2009 7:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I have to imagine his hip injury impacted his recovery ability.

by Richard Wade on Jan 28, 2009 8:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

But since his freshmen year of college, he’s been injured more than he’s been healthy. So I’m not sure how you put all that into the context of evaluating him as a “premier corner”.

by Wonko on Jan 29, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair point.

by Richard Wade on Jan 29, 2009 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

He only played HALF the games and had DOUBLE the amount of INTs than the next closest guy. REALLY?

Brady Hoke, Al Borges, and Rocky Long. Aztec football is back!

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Jan 28, 2009 12:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You really can't

Use ints as proof that a corner is good.

by stedtfeld on Jan 28, 2009 5:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 28, 2009 7:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok?

by stedtfeld on Jan 28, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I loved the INTs in 2007, hated the coverage ability in 2008

but three things make me feel that the “real” (read: long-term) Cromartie lies somewhere pretty close to the 2007 version rather than the 2008 on the Cromartie Continuum. 1) Merriman’s loss crippled the pass rush that predicated a lot of his ball-hawking, 2) the postseason report of a fractured hip may be exaggerated, but there was clearly something wrong that 6 months off ought to take care of, and 3) his name-changing, coattail-riding cousin looks pretty damn good, so maybe there is just something to that Cromartie name.

by Lenny Suckerpunch on Jan 28, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fractured Hip = Not Exaggerated

Remember he sat at least one or two games early in the season because of that hip injury. It’s not like it mysteriously appeared in the playoffs. Most people had just forgotten about it since he was able to start almost every game after missing a couple.

by Wonko on Jan 28, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Only exaggerated as to extent, maybe

When you throw the word “fractured” out there, the image runs the gamut from a tiny crack to ball coming off the femur. It was clearly limiting and affected his ability to run with, and more importantly cut with receivers. But I have to think it’s on the hairline crack end of the “fractured” spectrum, or he wouldn’t have been playing period let alone starting over Gordon or someone else. I’ll just say injured, because he obviously was that.

Basically, I don’t want to think of him like Roethlisberger, whose seemlingly weekly injuries are always dramatically revealed after he “heroically” played through them that game. I want to think of him like Rivers playing through an actually torn ACL. Or LT attempting to play through an actually torn groin muscle (again, why isn’t that getting repaired?). Injury reports that get disseminated to the public are just inherently nebulous half-truths and worthy of suspicion. That’s all I mean.

by Lenny Suckerpunch on Jan 28, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Too Early

I think this is premature. Norv has done well in the post season, but has struggled some in the regular season. Some game time decisions I have questioned, but he seems to be getting better. For all the heat and abuse he has taken he has three playoff wins and two AFC West Championships in two seasons, not too shabby. Drafts take three years to evaluate, I think next year will tell the tale on Norv.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 23, 2009 8:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

sorry

I guess the headline doesn’t really match the topic, which is more about Norv’s performance rather than his position in the Charger coaching echelon. It seems to me Norv gets very little respect, despite taking a 4-8 team to the playoffs. I’m pulling for the guy.

by CoastalBronco on Jan 23, 2009 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs