Nose Tackle

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 14, 2009 8:28 AM PST

Jamal Williams introduces himself

The Chargers run a one gap 3-4 defense. This means that there are three on the defensive line, the Nose Tackle and two defensive ends and each of them is responsible for just one gap (between two offensive linemen). In this system the hardest player to find is the nose tackle. The nose tackle needs to be a monster capable of demanding the double team by the offensive line. He has to be able to hold his ground, or even better, penetrate across the line of scrimmage to jam up runs coming up the middle. Generally these are 'wide bodies' that run 325+ pounds, not just heavy but massively strong to push across the line.

The Chargers have a prototype in Jamal Williams listed at 348. Last year the Chargers had Brandon McKinney backing him up and perhaps grooming as his replacement, but this year McKinney was dropped. Something must have been at issue there, whether injury or off field. Williams has been amazing at nose tackle, but with eleven seasons under his belt his knees are finally grinding down. Currently he gets an extra day off per week and sees little playing time in the preseason. There was a definite drop off the first three to four games of the season as he played his way into shape. Later in the year he returned to form, but he didn't seem to be getting his customary push against the Steelers. Making the jump to the NFL from college at NT isn't easy; it would be best to ease his replacement in for at least a year. That means a nose tackle should be a priority in this years draft; perhaps even the first round choice if the right player is available.

Currently the Chargers list Ryon Bingham and Ian Scott as depth at NT. Bingham weighs in at just over three hundred pounds and is a definite drop off in performance. He played more early, not coincidentally when the Chargers were giving up more yards on the ground as Jamal rounded into shape. Stephen Coopers absence also played a role in the soft run defense early on. I think concern over Jamal triggered us to pick up Ian Scott, but with Jamal healthy he never made the actives. Ian Scott also weighs in at just over 300 pounds and seems more suited to a 4-3 tackle to me, he comes from the Bears who do go with a 4-3 defense. Next we will look at some of the draft prospects at NT and see which are most promising and might be available.

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I would not be suprised if the Chargers go back to the 4-3 next year.

Especially if Rivera returns.

They could move Meriman to more of a hybrid position of rush end who can drop back in coverage, rotate a line of Williams, Cesaire and Bignham, move Cooper to an outside backer along with Phillips and put more of a run stopping backer in the middle like Siler.

by Grey Suit on Jan 14, 2009 8:41 AM PST reply actions

Woah Buddy

You cannot just switch from 3-4 to 4-3 willy-nilly. It takes years to get rid of the players that fit the 3-4 and replace them with players that first the 4-3. For instance, if we switched to a 4-3 our DTs would probably be Jamal and Castillo. That’s fine, but who are our DEs? Merriman is better standing up, but I’ll give him one spot and say he’ll learn. Who is the other? Also, Phillips is not a real LB. He’s too small to be a DE or OLB in a 4-3. He’s like Steve Foley in that way. Siler is still unproven.

The teams that switch from 3-4 to 4-3 or visa versa are really bad teams that change their head coach. We switched to the 3-4 when we got Marty and it still took a couple years to get the right players for the system. Nobody switches their defense while keeping their D coordinator and their head coach and after winning a playoff game.

by John Gennaro on Jan 14, 2009 9:30 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

It didn't really seem like they had the personnel to run a 3-4 this year.

Merriman played DE in college as well as OLB and it was debated where he would play in the NFL when he came out.

I think Castillo would work well as the strong side DE, also with Merriman on the other side of the line instead of Olshansky it may create a lot more favorable matchups for him (as far as TE and RB’s) and his pass rush may improve.

As far as Siler he came up with a few huge 3rd and 4th down run stops this year, he may be unproven but so is anyone else they would stick in there as the 2nd MLB in a 3-4 package next year.

You are correct that Phillips would be somewhat of the weak link in a 4-3 but as we saw this year he was somewhat of a weak link in the 3-4 when Merriman is not drawing a double team and Wade Phillips is not the D coordinator .

by Grey Suit on Jan 14, 2009 9:51 AM PST up reply actions

By the end of the year

they were doing better. They really had trouble getting pressure off the edge, but if Merriman is coming back and Ron Rivera is more aggressive and they use their first pick and maybe one of the third rounders, I think they will be in good shape. I really didn’t see anything in Bingham that would suggest he was up to starting; I love Cesaire, but he was unimpressive in the Steeler game. Siler is good against the run, but reportedly not against the pass which is why he was mostly limited to short yardage situations. Cooper is not at all a good fit for an OLB position in my mind. They asked a bit too much of S. Phillips this year after Merriman went down; hooked back up with Merriman coming off the weak side with a more aggressive Rivera at the helm, I think he will return to form. I have seen some speculation about going 4-3, but can’t quite see it.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 14, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Is Shaun Phillips too small for defensive end?

Phillips -6’3 262

Other Cover-2 DEs:
Mark Anderson (Chi) – 6’4 255
Adewale Ogunleye (Chi) – 6’4 260
Alex Brown (Chi) – 6’3 260
Dwight Freeney (Ind) – 6’1 268
Robert Mathis (Ind) – 6’2 245
Gaines Adams (TB) – 6’5 260
Greg White (TB) – 6’3 268

I think that with Olshansky out the door the team becomes a decent fit for a 4-3
DEs: Merriman and Phillips
DTs: Williams and Castillo (remember Williams was still awesome in a 4-3 before Wade got here)
OLBs: Dobbins and Wilhelm
MLB: Cooper

Obviously you’d want to upgrade the OLB position (Brian Cushing?). Cesaire and Tucker would rotate in at DE with Binghom or Scott rotating at DT. Merriman could sometimes move to OLB when Tucker is in. Tucker played DE at Wake Forest.

1-10-DEN 18 (9:52) (Shotgun) 6-J.Cutler pass short right intended for 19-E.Royal INTERCEPTED by 93-L.Castillo (95-S.Phillips) at DEN 18. 93-L.Castillo to DEN 14 for 4 yards (62-C.Wiegmann). 6-J.Cutler pouts ob to DEN 25 for 11 yards.

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions

Phillips

Was Phillips a DE or an OLB in college? This would be a big deciding factor for me. Same thing goes for Tucker. The simple fact remains that they weren’t drafted to be DEs, which means they probably serve better purpose as pass rushing OLBs in a 3-4 than a DE in a 4-3.

Also, I don’t think Castillo (or Cesaire) could never be a DE in a 4-3. Show me one team with a 4-3 defense that has a 300lb defensive end. He’s not fast enough to get around the corner. In the 3-4 you basically have 3 DTs and no DEs. Castillo is a DT. He’s meant to take up blockers. DEs today and small and fast so you don’t know if they’re going outside around you or trying to slip by you on the inside. All Castillo would be doing is trying to bullrush on every play. That wouldn’t work.

The different between having an unproven MLB in the 3-4 and 4-3 is simply. In the 4-3 that MLB is responsible for covering the entire field. Sideline to sideline. By himself usually because the OLBs are busy covering TEs and RBs. In a 3-4, that responsibility is cut in half. You’re responsible for half of the field or a TE/RB that comes into your area (if the OLB on your side is blitzing). You can have one good MLB and one mediocre one and still have a fairly solid defense, as we saw late in this past season. In the 4-3, the MLB is the quarterback and the most important player on the field. If he messes one little thing up, you’re finished on that play. Siler hasn’t earned that responsibility yet.

Merriman played DE and OLB in college, but coming out everyone knew he’d get taken to play in the 3-4 because he CAN play LB. A LB with his pass-rushing abilities is special, because you combine his skill with a scheme that hides who is coming and who isn’t, as well as where they might be coming from. If you put his hand on the ground and let them know he’s coming every time, it takes away some of his effectiveness.

Anyways, none of this takes away from my point that it would never happen. Teams don’t switch out defenses after winning seasons.

by John Gennaro on Jan 14, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions

I saw Phillips play in college

I saw many of them live in fact. He was a DE and a beast of one. Started there as a redshirt freshmen in Brees’ senior year at Purdue (Rose Bowl, baby). Many of the Purdue DEs do convert to OLB in the pros (Ayodele, Spencer and Colvin), but Ray Edwards has done a good job at DE in Minnesota.

Cesaire is a big boy, but I think he’s versatile enough to take some snaps at DE. He may have to shed some pounds. Castillo should not be playing DE in a 4-3. Castillo played Warren Sapp style DT in college where he had to get lots of penetration. It was a surprise to many that he went to a 3-4 team in the draft. Many had the Eagles drafting him for their system. I think he’s a good fit as the a 4-3 DT (I think they call the position the Under Tackle or something). Jamal would stay as a space eater much like Booger McFarland was on the Tampa Bay super bowl team, but he’s athletic enough to get to the QB from time to time.

Siler is not a starter in the NFL. I see Cooper as the MLB. He’s the playcaller, the leader and probably the most athletic of the non-Phillips/Merriman LBs. Siler is like Carlos Polk. Useful on special teams and goal line, but not a starter.

I’ll have to look into the “winning teams switching defenses” thing, but I bet I’ll find some. I see no reason to be stuck in a defense that finished as one of the worst and had it’s flaws hidden in 2007 due to Cromartie interceptions. But, I really don’t care, just as long as it plays well and I could see it going either way.

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions

OLBs: Dobbins and Wilhelm

This scares me. This system also requires safeties that are better in coverage; that doesn’t sound like our safeties to me.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 14, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Scares me too

Definitely we would need to draft an OLB to make the system work.

The safeties don’t bother me. They will be better at the Cover Two where they only have deep responsibilities. The current system leaves 1 safety deep and one short and the deep safety has to make a decision which side of the field to give deep responsibility to. I think the safeties will cover better if you take a some of that decision making out of their jobs. Also, it doesn’t seem like the system requires high draft pick type safeties to make it work. So you could probably bring in some guys to do it on the cheap (or with low round draft picks).

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions

Haloti Ngata

is the only player in recent memory that came out of college as a sure-fire stud NT. Everyone else is usually a good DT that has to learn the 3-4, which might happen to the kid from Alabama (who I love, btw).

Also, Donald Brown from Uconn could probably fix our problems at Nose Tackle…..

by John Gennaro on Jan 14, 2009 9:33 AM PST reply actions

And Ngata doesn't even play NT

He actually plays DE (similar to Olshansky’s position) while Justin Banaan plays NT.

I can think of a better prototype NT out of college. Vince Wilfork. Also, Casey Hampton back in the day. There have been others, but only so many get drafted by 3-4 teams. Many are guys that people see as sure-fire NTs, but they just get drafted by 4-3 teams (Shaun Rogers comes to mind and in 2008 he finally became one after leaving the Lions).

I think the kid out of Alabama (Terrance Cody) played NT for Saban in Alabama because I think they use the 3-4 a lot. Also, at 375 (!) I’m not sure how he could play anything else.

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions

Ngata

played NT his rookie season. I know that much. I forgot about Wilfork, he was a great 3-4 NT prospect.

I’ve only seen Alabama 3 times this season but I saw a mix of 4-3 and 3-4, with Cody always playing the Nose. He’d be a great pickup for us.

by John Gennaro on Jan 14, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions

He's another one of those guys

That I’m not sure is a mid first round pick, but might be there in the second round. But, of course (I sound like a broken record), we unfortunately don’t have a 2nd round pick.

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions

if AJ wants him badly enough

we could trade up into the 2nd round.

by John Gennaro on Jan 14, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions

I strongly advise against that

However, if they want to trade down and if by some miracle pull a Patriots and get a future 1st round pick. I’d be okay with that.

With all these free agents coming up after the 2009 season, I don’t see how we can afford to keep giving up multiple picks for 1 pick in the current year.

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions

The philosophy is that....

If we have 7 picks in a year, we may not have 7 holes to fill and therefore don’t need 7 new contracts. This is the first year since the Merriman pick where that actually may not be true. How many holes do we really have? HB, OT, OG, MLB, DT, SS. Six. So we’ll probably us all of our picks and then play around with the last one (I believe we still have 7 picks?).

Going into last year’s draft, how many holes did we think we had? Two? Backup RB and OT. Maybe MLB, but before the preseason everyone was pretty okay with a Wilhelm/Smith tandem beside Cooper. I guess Nickel Corner was one. But when you’re using first round picks on Nickel Corners and have 2 studs to start, you don’t think you have a lot of holes. That was the main philosophy for getting the player we wanted and getting rid of some picks.

by John Gennaro on Jan 14, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions

You forgot DE

Olshansky is gonzo. But you don’t often find starters anywhere below the third round, so we have maybe three picks that could turn into starters. We will no doubt muddle through on some positions and pick up some low level FA’s on others. I was more convinced on prior drafts that trading future picks was OK; but this year I agree with Wonko; we need to hang on to the future picks like gold.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 14, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions

That philosophy

Seems to have not worked out very well. We had a lot of roster spots that were need of some upgrades that were not addressed. It was highly criticized at the time (although I think defended it some) and in hindsight does not look wise. You are only considering “holes” at starting positions. There are still some backups that need upgrading. You also seem to assume that Newberry and/or Shelton will be coming back. I’d also argue that we may need to bring in somebody to replace Whitehurst. You also missed RB where LT and Hester and the only players under contract. There are plenty of holes to fill with draft picks. Not to mention that you get better players when you draft higher. You need depth because teams don’t stay healthy. We needed talented players to fill those holes. Projects like Jyles Tucker, Cletis Gordon, Legedu Naane or Jeromy Clary work out every once in a while, but it really helps to have guys that are skilled enough to play immediately and like DaBolts said, those players tend to come from the first 3 rounds. Especially at positions like LB, OT, DT and DE.

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions

I agree....kindof

I agree that we need to keep all of our picks this year.

However, in past years the draft picks were given up and then those backup holes were replaced with low-level free agents (like Shelton, Newberry, Derek Smith, etc.). Has it backfired? A little. Having a better backup lined up to replace LT and Igor certainly would be ideal. But at the time it was used as a cost-saving move, as most first and second round picks immediately get starter money.

by John Gennaro on Jan 14, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions

I know the 2nd-rounder's gone to NE

for Hester. Chargers are almost sure to get a 3rd for Michael Turner, though. So that would get back to 7 picks if there aren’t other trades/comps I’m not thinking of.

by Lenny Suckerpunch on Jan 14, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions

Drayton Florence, too

Get whatever for him (not sure how much he started, and not sure of the comp formula). And assuming we’re not balanced out by signing Derek Smith, Jeremy Newberry, etc.

by Lenny Suckerpunch on Jan 14, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions

They all got

picked up too late to affect the comp. I think we will get a fourth maybe? I dunno, heard he tanked this year.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 14, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions

I don't know what to expect regarding Turner

Is compensation based on what they do before or after you lose the player? Do they use contract values? Pro bowl appearances? I have no clear. It’s kind of mysterious.

I think it would work out best if it were based on contract values since both Turner and Florence got some tasty deals.

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions

It's a secret

for some reason. Some combination of salary, playing time and honors (Pro Bowl, etc.). Turner is sure to be a third rounder; I think Florence will be a fourth, but that’s just my WAG.

"Football is a physical sport, sometimes you have a disagreement on what's going on, and you have a discussion about it." Kris Dielman

by Brian (DaBolts) on Jan 14, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions

I have a hard time believing

That a player who had never started a game before leaving would result a 3rd round pick. But, if it’s true, I’ll take it.

by Wonko on Jan 14, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions

It has to do with what they do after they leave

That’s why we didn’t know what we were getting until now.

by John Gennaro on Jan 14, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions

They're usually announced at the end of March

so not a lot of turnaround before the draft. But I know they take all the free agents a team loses compared to all the free agents a team signs (within a timeframe, according to DaBolts above), and the net number is the maximum number of compensatory picks that team could get. Round value is a product of some convoluted formula, but I found some guy last year that had been pretty accurate the previous two years. I will try to find him again and post later. Turner I’d bank on being a 3rd (large contract, starter, huge stats). Florence only started 8 games, but signed a decent contract. If I were to guess wildly, I’d say 5th-6th round.

by Lenny Suckerpunch on Jan 14, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions